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Oh, Damn! guess me getting drunk is not that bad after all!!!
@Miro630:well , about your answers, there are so many and i feel like i have to read them carefully before i jump to answer any of them, so save yours for the last and thanks very much for offering a different opinion, i am open to all of them.
@Dan: thank you too, it is nice to know how other people think about china/chinese culture!
@Deven: about your first question,it is NOT tragic about using chopstics as primary representation of those traditions. ….you can’t imagine when i was young, how big a deal it was just to Eat properl.when i was young, we all had to wait our greatparents and parents before we could eat, and the younger we are, we sit the futher away from those delicious dishes. Before we eat, we even had to pay respect to our ancesters. also,eating should be quiet,we were not allowed to smack mouth, and all people used right hand so we wouldnt cause trouble for co-eaters, and i couldnt remember how many times my daddy tried to correct my posture of holding the chopsticks,or how i got scolded for wasting food and kneeled down for 2 hours……
and there were so much more…this represents the “order” of the family, and the idea that we should always respect old people and our ancesters, as well as the respect towards the nature.i don’t know what rituals mean to you, but they are , according to me, certainly part of the culture. the ideas within these rituals are actually the essential part of traditional culture. using chopsticks are just part of the Eating culture. There are so much more i can tell but my student will be here in 3 minutes..
About the second question, yeah i feel sorry but it is too complicated. Now I can just say that personally i think,i agree with the idea that it is a pity to have lost so many traditional architectures, but i think culture is more about symbolic architecture you see in chengdu,it is more of the idea lying under the surface of the symbolic architectures( which like i said, have gone for the most part of it), but maybe it is not such a bad thing after all, i mean, changing to be a country where freedom, literty, competition is highly values is not necessarily a bad thing, so i no longer feel sorry as i used to do….
Also , because it is the idea more than the symbolic architectures that matters, ( they are important too, i admit that.) jinli is definitely NOT the symbol of traditional culture. if you are interested, traditional culture is more in Qingyanggong, wenshuyuan and those parks where old people who practice taiji or Calligranphy everyday in the morning. ( this is called ” ????“ by the way, influenced by Taoism.)
As for Chengdu where you currently live in, it’s unique culture is in those ” hotpot” restaurants , tea-houses and parks where people talk, chat, play majiang and rest all the time…(chengdu is famouse for its” ????” ? which means the culture of the middle class.)
Got to run now, if you are interested , i will continue to talk about this topic, in a word , yeah , traditional culture is dying. but part of them is still there.Hey Tina,
Thanks for your responses. It is quite interesting. Yeah I do think every individual can have his/her own opinion and judgement, since a memory of a nation consists of everyone’s memory. But the interesting point is that among all those individual ideas, how can we as a whole find out a point to bring all of us together.
My name is 陈科蓉, is it still familiar to you? 😀
Well, I guess we start to come here into the problem due to complexity of the term ‘culture’.
I am coming out from the definition as presented by Edward Tyler:
culture is “that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society.”Culture than having a lot of subcultures where every subculture member shares a common identity, food tradition, dialect or language, and other cultural traits that come from their common ancestral background and experience.
It generally mean that Chengdu people are subculture of Chinese culture.
For sake of culture discussion I guess it cannot be limited to architecture or any other single culture element only.
By the way the architecture is developing in the history – if not so we talk about ‘outdoor museum’ rather than about living culture.
In Europe we are also not building castles and chateaus anymore and we still do not believe that we destroyed or lost this part of culture – we just developed into different stage 🙂
But I guess you mean vast demolition which took place in different times during China history, right?
It’s certainly pity we cannot now see the original architectonic of the previous eras but I would not really call it ‘destroying the culture’ …
Especially if we talk about ‘Traditional Culture’ I assume this should be more recognizable in personal habits and behavior rather than in outside elements.
In Europe we are also not building castles and chateaus anymore and we still do not believe that we destroyed or lost this part of culture – we just developed into different stage.
But I guess you mean vast demolition which took place in different times during China history, right?
It’s certainly pity we cannot now see the original architectonic of the previous eras but I would not really call it ‘destroying the culture’ …
Especially if we talk about ‘Traditional Culture’ I assume this should be more recognizable in personal habits and behavior rather than in outside elements.
That’s an interesting perspective. If all of the chateaus and castles of Europe were destroyed, would you not consider that a loss of culture? What about the pyramids of Egypt, the Great Wall of China, or the Taj Mahal? I think these objects are the physical manifestation of our collective history, which is exactly what culture is.
In that case you would have to consider Germany to be the country of lost history – more or less the whole country was destroyed during the 20th century but I do not find their culture to be in any aspect ‘lost’.
In that case you would have to consider Germany to be the country of lost history – more or less the whole country was destroyed during the 20th century but I do not find their culture to be in any aspect ‘lost’.
We are getting off topic here, but I will say a few things:
Of course, Germany is without question a country that has lost a huge amount of history and culture due to suffering in the 20th century. Take Prussia, for example: it contributed a huge amount to world culture – our global model of formal education came from educational reforms made in that region in the late 18th century. The Prussian industrial model was a blueprint for later development of the global economy and industry. My family is from that region, until the area was completely destroyed in the 20th century, everything was razed, and the region lost its local culture. I was in North Germany just a few weeks ago discussing this with people there, how Bavaria and other regions of Germany have held onto their culture and are proud of it, while Prussia lost everything.
Your argument seems to be that just because everything was destroyed doesn’t mean that Germany, or any country which has suffered incredible catastrophe, isn’t culturally worse off for it. I disagree with you. American culture is strong, but it doesn’t mean that we didn’t lose an enormous amount of history and culture when genocide was committed against Native Americans. Physical structures are our cultural heritage. It’s the shared history that we inherit from ancestors and pass onto the next generation.
Well, it was not just Prussia which suffered during the wars. A lot bigger part of Germany was destroyed.
But I of course agree with you that from culture perspective this represents a loss.
But I would like to add that the loss is ‘just’ on the part of culture bound to ‘architecture’. Culture in my understanding is much broader than this and therefore I was also citing the definition I consider quite fitting to my understanding of culture.
Based that I also do not consider current Germany the country without culture. And certainly not less cultureous than many other European countries where the damage was in comparison to Germany minor.
What concerns of America so I think there the topic gets much more complex as the subcultures in America are relatively strong.
May be it’s a bit similar to China as I assume majority of Americans identifies themselves with the country but they still feel very strong tights to their community.
What I just wanted to say that culture as a word is quite broad and I wanted to clarify what are we really discussing to prevent eventual misunderstanding.
I see nothing wrong if somebody (I am not saying it’s you!) just selects one part of the culture – for instance art – and discusses that part only. But it’s in my understanding different discussion than ‘Traditional Chinese Culture’ discussion.
I see nothing wrong if somebody (I am not saying it’s you!) just selects one part of the culture – for instance art – and discusses that part only. But it’s in my understanding different discussion than ‘Traditional Chinese Culture’ discussion.
I understand, that is fair. You said that Europe doesn’t build chateaus or castles anymore, and has moved onto another stage of cultural development, and that all makes sense. My point is that this is very different from having all of your cultural relics violently destroyed. The presence of those buildings is a memorial to the history, culture and traditions of that society. In Europe, everything is old: it has a lot of history. In China, everything is new: it has a complex and bizarre relationship with history.
At what point does “newness” become part of your culture?
For example, Atlanta, USA is known for building new stuff instead of keeping old stuff around. Many people deride it (particularly those from elsewhere), but the argument can be made that its’ been happening since Summer 1864, and has shaped Atlanta’s culture to this point, so that they’re cashing in 20 year old football and baseball stadiums for new ones.
Is this same phenomenon that we see happening in China now? A legacy of the reforms of the mid-20th century? Or in Northern Germany?
I agree that it’s of course unlucky to loose the older architecture.
Nevertheless I would still insist on the fact that it’s just a part of the culture.
When talking about traditional Chinese culture so the first thing which comes to my mine certainly is not Forbidden City in Beijing (actually not even the second thing …).
It’s more the persons behavior, way of thinking etc.
As a matter of fact I think that a lot of current China people behavior is based on traditional (ancient) principles. But of course many things are also different as the society very naturally reacts on the changed environment.
I just wanted react on Tina’s statement generally, in my opinion, shrinking a bit the culture just to buildings and exercising in the parks (here I exaggerate a bit of course …).
Coming back to your example with Europe and demolished castles let me just repeat – big part of Germany as well as Poland, Russia, Ukraine etc. was more or less wiped out but the countries still have their distinctive culture.
The same applies for China – the culture is not just in authentic buildings.
I agree that it’s of course unlucky to loose the older architecture.
Nevertheless I would still insist on the fact that it’s just a part of the culture.
So now you admit that old architecture is part of the culture. Previously you said that destroying old buildings is not destroying the culture, when you said: It’s certainly pity we cannot now see the original architectonic of the previous eras but I would not really call it ‘destroying the culture’ …
Coming back to your example with Europe and demolished castles let me just repeat – big part of Germany as well as Poland, Russia, Ukraine etc. was more or less wiped out but the countries still have their distinctive culture.
The same applies for China – the culture is not just in authentic buildings.
I do not disagree. No one here has said that culture only exists in buildings, or that countries which have experienced violent revolutions are not capable of having culture. However, China and its culture has undoubtedly suffered greatly due to events of the last century.
May be I expressed myself awkwardly – at the end of the day English is for me a foreign language …
The problem is exactly with the broad meaning of the world culture. In biology culture is bacterial colony grown on agar. Many people understand under culture music, theater and paintings Etc. Etc.
Therefore I came with the definition what I understand under the word culture.
It’s hard to argue if buildings are or are not culture. But the point I wanted to say that building as such have little to do with culture defined as human behavior including the acquired habits.
Many emigrant colonies around the world preserve ‘their culture’ even though there are none of the buildings of their own ‘culture’ present in the place of their living.
In that sense I am again repeating that I do not think that demolition of majority of the old buildings in China had any big impact on the culture as I refer to it.
I would also oppose the term of ‘cultural vacuum’ you used earlier. Certainly the 20th century in China had its strong contribution to Chinese culture, but I would certainly not call it cultural vacuum.
I would also oppose the term of ‘cultural vacuum’ you used earlier. Certainly the 20th century in China had its strong contribution to Chinese culture, but I would certainly not call it cultural vacuum.
I am not even close to the first person to say that, that exact phrase is routinely used by Chinese experts to describe post-Mao China. It is mentioned in dozens of books about China, including this, this, and this. That exact phrase was also used in the Vice episode about renting a foreigner, by a Chinese PhD last week.
It’s hard to argue if buildings are or are not culture. But the point I wanted to say that building as such have little to do with culture defined as human behavior including the acquired habits.
They most certainly are. The architecture of a place represents the history, culture, and people of that place. This is what makes the field of architecture so interesting and telling about different cultures and societies around the world. Whether you’re looking at a Mongolian yurt, the Colosseum in Rome, or the Forbidden Palace in Beijing, they all tell a lot about the people and history of those places.
Well, I still may disagree with ‘routine of Chinese experts’ on post-Mao China, can I?
Absolutely, just saying that it’s not an original idea or phrase 🙂
Awesome thread so far! When I have more time I’ll read all of it, but in regards to the chopstick thing “tragic” was probably the wrong word to use. I was looking at it with an American perspective for sure. For example, I would never say that using a fork and knife correctly are aspects of American (or any) culture, but I understand that eating and food are huge parts of Chinese tradition.
Culture is probably the hardest word in the English language to define and discuss, but I associate it a lot with creativity and innovation. I’m curious as to your thoughts on this with regards to modern China. Is there creativity here? Is it becoming more and more emphasized? Of course, creativity is another word that’s very broad, but from what I’ve seen having lived in China the last few years, an overall lack of creativity (or the encouragement of creative thinking) is one of China’s main issues.
@ Miro630:
I wrote two different articles About the saying , in China, ” moralism rules over the law” . At first I tend to not agree,but then when I think about it, I found your ideas very interesting , and in a way they are actually right.
I think people will be interested about the idea of law, which is so important and has a profound history in western countries which probably dates back to the Greek and Roman times. It is practically as important and as old as the word democracy.
Actually , just like there were numerous eminent philosophers in western countries since the Greek and RomAan period, ( and before that too) , there were also many as long as 2000 years ago. And there were also different schools , including Taoism started by laozi , (571BC-471BC) , Confucianism started by confucious ( 551BC-479BC) , Legalism with the representatives named han fei zi and Shang yang ( around the same time ) , and Warcraft ( or militarilism ? Don’t know the translation) with the representative called Sun zi ( I am sure you all know about his famous work , Master sun’s art of war and Engineerism (invent the word to show its idea) , Strategism ( also invent the name to show its idea) and so on.
Actually , what we say about traditional culture , mostly started from this period ( before that , most things were about how old kings ruled and people’s life were pretty natural to be defined as cultural phenomena) . And the development of all these different schools made the Chinese culture what it was until the late Qing dynasty.( lasted for over 2000 years , from around 500BC – )
Among them , without doubt , Confucianism influenced and ruled for the most part , and its ideas were deeply buried into all people from high classes , and its idea , to rule the country by guiding people with moral codes centered by ” emperor -official, father-son, husband – wife ” , which emphasizes the former is more important than the later . Then Taoism like I said , is more about achieving inner balance and let the people do what they want. These two were the most important schools .
legalism came the third . actually at one time , it even ruled the entire China, all schools started at the spring and autumn period , boomed since the war period , but since the war period , the legalism was really at its heyday , and its core idea is to rule the country by enforcing the law, which is , cruel punishments if people don’t obey . Actually , it’s because of this legalism , one kingdom finally won the war and started the first real empire in China , the Qin dynasty .221BC( this one I don’t need a reference book , haha) From the movies we know how he made people build his magnificent tomb , and the Great Wall and so on .
But legalism isn’t such beautiful because , Confucianism hate to make people suffer , not to mention Taoism . The penalties were so cruel and brutal people hated them , and the nobles hated them too because according to the law they will lose power and land .
So , legalism is , at the very least, from the appearance , not as popular as the above two other schools . But actually in the later dynasties , emperors were using laws to rule the country all the time. However, for the general public , law was still such a big and heavy word that very few people like to use it.
Even today , I guess most people still hated to go to the court to solve problems ..
As for other schools , like engineerism , which at that time represented the benefits for the general public, gradually died down and that s why in ancient China , engineering was never our strongsuits. Except for those related to agriculture , cause confucious said , farmers are great people and is the foundation of the country.
@charlie: hope this one doesn’t disappear like the last one I wrote. It’s really frustrating when you see things you wrote disappeared….Oh , I forgot to mention something. It’s about kungfu . About the Militarilism or Warcraft , later combined with Confucianism to ask people to do exercises to have good health and to protect the country . Chinese kungfu has many different schools too . But let’s just say , part of them originated from Militarilism , ( with sword and spear …) to train the soldiers, part of them has the idea originated from Buddhism ( you know shaolin temple ), and also part of them originated from the Taoism , like Taiji.
Thanks in particular to some German man I met tonight , he knows kungfu and learnt from Mount Wudang ( also the holy place for Taoists) which I don’t , but what he said suddenly reminded me of this .
When I was in college in chongqing , I talked with some old people , didn’t know it would come in handy , but they told me before the cultural revolution , many people in Chongqing and in China practiced martial art , he told me how his uncle’s hands were as hard as rocks as when he was young he practiced hot iron sand Zhang ( hit people with your palms) ..
also recently , I got a student from foshsn , where Bruce lee originated from , and where is most Chinese kungfu movies actions are from. However, it’s a pity I don’t know much about this indeed. Hope people who are interested can fill in.
( personally, I think learning kungfu is so different from boxing or anything, i only watched a bit about Bruce lee, but the way he practiced kungfu and the ideas in it was so Chinese traditional culture ! Love him)
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