The US Fails Me Again

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Viewing 20 posts - 21 through 40 (of 46 total)
  • Rick in China
    Rick in China
    Participant

    It is not a software company. It is a storage IT (SAN, NAS, FCoE, FC) company which headquartered in a town near Boston

    Ah the 3 letter one that starts with E, got it 😛

    #45040

    untruthful American
    Participant

    In the Chinese language media (Internet, TV, newspaper), all impressions about this country India is that –  oh, raping, gender discrimination, women suffer a lot, we should save them.

    But after 12 years experience in IT companies with Indians, the conclusion is totally different. Indian women are more selfish, injustice compared to Indian men.

    My previous manager before transferred to this rubbish Chinese was an Indian guy. Although not totally honest to me, but a decent guy who has a sense of fair and equality.

    #45052

    untruthful American
    Participant

    I want to write a 打油诗(poem) to relieve myself:

    “<span style=”color: #000000; font-family: 微软雅黑; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px; widows: auto;”>一十二年一梦觉,同是虎狼同堕落”</span>

    #45053

    untruthful American
    Participant

    Ahh, corporate politics. I’m curious to know where your idea of American corporate justice comes from OP. You say you’ve never lived abroad so I’m just wondering about the frame of reference. You seem pretty bitter about things so I’ll just offer my my perspective as a decade-long office jockey: If you choose to ‘hide’ in the same position for 12 years, odds are you’re eventually going to butt heads with someone, be it a colleague or manager. It sounds like it might be a good time to explore other opportunities within the company, and if that fails maybe look for another place to work if you think the new boss is going to be around for a while. Blaming America for your problems here is a little misguided.

    Hi WoodWERD,

    Let me put it this way, so it may help you understand.

    1. As I was born here, so I know how the society is in China.

    If I don’t believe in, it means other can’t cheat me so easily because I have defense.

    2. But as I didn’t know US as much as China, and I was willing to live in a more fair/ more humanlized environment. So I choose some western companies. The basis for me is only the media (Internet, movie, TV) we could see.

    As I believe in they are people with more fairness, I would like to contribute for this fairness myself which included when something happens to me, I follow the policy. When the nasty Chinese leader who was promoted by this Indian Lady tried his political maneuver on me, I didn’t do things out of line but to escalate following the company policy which was to escalate to his manager, the Indian Lady.

    I didn’t use the same nasty Chinese way to get back to him.

    3. But the Indian lady didn’t show me any fairness, only use Chinese HR to threaten me.

    And fire me at last.

    What I asked from her was not to remove this nasty Chinese guy out of his office, but to stop doing things like that, I can pretend nothing happened here. I don’t think I requested too high to her.

    But in this case, not a little bit of the US propagated fair and justice takes effect, just as nasty as the Chinese. I wasted my career, my trust, and my dignity.

     

     

    #45054

    untruthful American
    Participant

    If the Americans didn’t use themselves as a bait to advertise for them, I may not so easily believe in their so called policy, and loose. The Chinese guy is just a person who calculates others, we have too many this kind of people here, can’t cheat me.

    #45055
    WoodWERD
    WoodWERD
    Participant

    Thanks for the reply. I could ramble on about corporations but I’ll just say to chalk it up as a lesson learned and move on. You’ve gained a lot of experience from the job, it wasn’t a total loss as you say. Very few large (US) corporations treat their employees like they’re anything more than a number on their balance sheet. Especially so for a publicly traded company; you hear stories about how awesome FB and Google are to work for, but those are in the minority.

    Like I said earlier, it’s a very political (some call it high-schoolish) environment and it sounds like you decided to go against the grain as they say. If you’re not drinking the company kool-aid and are butting heads with people in power, you’re going to have problems no matter where they’re located.

    #45065

    untruthful American
    Participant

    Thanks for the reply. I could ramble on about corporations but I’ll just say to chalk it up as a lesson learned and move on. You’ve gained a lot of experience from the job, it wasn’t a total loss as you say. Very few large (US) corporations treat their employees like they’re anything more than a number on their balance sheet. Especially so for a publicly traded company; you hear stories about how awesome FB and Google are to work for, but those are in the minority. Like I said earlier, it’s a very political (some call it high-schoolish) environment and it sounds like you decided to go against the grain as they say. If you’re not drinking the company kool-aid and are butting heads with people in power, you’re going to have problems no matter where they’re located.

    Thanks for the reply.

    I have some unsaying meanings in above rambling.

    China is like this because of 2200 years reverse election, it is not like the Chinese people’s gene has a problem. The social election system is wrong since Qin Dynasty. When you fight (or work) with nasty people, your moral bottom line is dropping too because if you kept your high moral bottom line, like me, you loose for certain even if you have luck, if you want to win, you have to be more nasty. That’s how the world becomes worse. If you study the history, for lowly working people, although the technology advances, it brings more and more fake comfort, but the freedom and room living for the lowly working people is worse and worse. 70 years ago, if you don’t want to cooperate with the nasty political trashes, saving some money, purchase a land at a “not so nasty” place and live on it. But now, if you don’t want to suck ass, the possibility for you to survive is little. The controlling of system to every corner of society is much tighter thanks to the advance of western technologies. So is it evolution and advance?

    I know you must think I am mad. You know I have been betrayed for 12 years, you must understand me.

    #45113

    897934-884
    Participant

    Pretty interesting thread.  It surprises me how much trust and faith people around the world have in US gov/corporations.    Be reminded that the powers that exist in the USA are descendant of our forefathers, who were all slave-owning bigots who wanted a nation of “freedom” for all   (not including blacks, natives or women ).   Trust in the virtues of American people – or people of the world for that matter – all you want.  But a government or corporation rarely ever gives a flying —- about you.

    #45151
    Charlie
    Charlie
    Keymaster

    Pretty interesting thread. It surprises me how much trust and faith people around the world have in US gov/corporations.

    It’s not unreasonable to expect US companies to adhere to a higher standard of ethics and quality than other countries, because there is a developed system of accountability within America’s private sector. That’s why “Made in USA” is something valuable that people are willing to pay more for. American companies, even outside of America, are subject to American laws with things like FCPA (Foreign Corrupt Practices Act).

    I contacted the creator of this thread to see if he had any evidence of legitimate wrongdoing and he didn’t respond, so I assume there is no evidence of actual fraud, bribery, or other crimes and this is just a thread for venting.

    If anyone reading this has knowledge or evidence of wrongdoing (fraud, bribery, corruption) within an American company here, get in touch with me. One of my good friends is an experienced lawyer who has a track record of success in cases against American companies who cheat. In some cases, there can be a very significant settlement.

    #45183

    897934-884
    Participant

    Hi Charlie,

    I don’t think the creator cited any laws broken,  I think that he was just more upset about the practices in effect (venting, as you said). He apparently found that doing business in such a way was disingenuous or crude, so-to-speak.

    But I think it’s good that you challenged my comment to the context of the current century.  We can’t be bothered with what the forefathers did in their time/zeitgeist.

    The laws in this case really don’t matter.   First of all, corporations are the primary lobbyists for laws written.   It’s easy for them to follow their own rules.  Secondly,  US corporations don’t have to follow US laws when they hand off responsibility to a local/regional firm.  Foxconn, for example.   In other industries, sweatshops have existed for a reason.   Look at P&G or Coca-Cola, who have been wreaking havoc over rainforests across the globe for decades.   There may be laws, but who’s gonna enforce them?  And against a foreign intermediary?

    There’s no law that can teach human decency.   Laws are designed for punitive purposes, not preventative.   By the time you punish someone, the damage has already been done.   I think the creator of the thread is right to criticize what he sees as poor behavior.   What we can accomplish as citizens overseeing the next guy/gal, no law will ever achieve.   Law enforcement in America has made too much of a farce of itself to ever be taken seriously.  I don’t need to tell you that the USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world.  Most of which is the result of individuals who were holding bags of grass, something which grows naturally upon the earth.

    Anyways,  it has been an interesting thread to read.   Who knows the real story with this guy, but he brought up some interesting issues that are worth talking about.

    #45195
    raschmidt
    raschmidt
    Participant

    Just me throwing in my few cents………

    Your boss in US was an Indian lady you said?  They don’t have a good reputation as being “fair” managers….

    US companies promote the “political trash” on purpose, they want to use their connections to get better deals.  US companies do the same thing in the US, I’m guessing these managers didn’t really do a lot of managing, more just used their positions or connections for leverage.  The #1 goal of any US publically owned company is to make as much profit as possible, so they don’t care about hiring ethical people, they care about getting profits without breaking the law (or getting caught breaking the law).  I think deep down, the US and China are about the same.  They try to give a different appearance on the surface but people everywhere have the same motives and drives.

    #45200
    Charlie
    Charlie
    Keymaster

    Goatboy,

    You make some very valid points and I agree with many of them. Thank you for writing a thought-provoking reply. The reason why I mention law and the legality of American companies is because I have an interest in helping my friend discover potential cases in Chengdu or elsewhere in China that benefit his firm and victims of corporate wrongdoing at the same time.

    So, this is a complex issue which could be discussed at great length, but I will just say a few things.

    I don’t think that the legal atmosphere in China can be fairly called equivalent to the United States for many reasons. China routinely enacts laws which are outright laughed at, by locals and foreigners alike, like when they recently banned smoking indoors, or enacted a law to determine who the Dalai Lama will be reincarnated as. Laws like this are routine in China. No one in China really knows which laws will be enforced at any given time, so there’s a uniquely arbitrary quality to law enactment and enforcement here. Anyone who has been to the PSB or dealt with any official organ of the CCP will have experienced this.

    The incarceration rate of non-violent criminals in the United States is a good example of the American police state, but not of lawlessness in my opinion. China is a place where parents with financial means don’t dare buy baby formula produced in China because there’s a widespread belief, with reason, that regulatory bodies are toothless to fight institutionalized corruption and rampant profiteering at the cost of human lives. Toothless is probably the wrong word to use, we all know they are being paid off. This is just an example, but there are many industries in China which operate under similar principles of lawlessness, and regulatory bodies which do nothing but provide the slightest appearance of oversight.

    The laws in this case really don’t matter. First of all, corporations are the primary lobbyists for laws written. It’s easy for them to follow their own rules.

    This is true in many cases but there are also cases which demonstrate exactly the opposite, like the US recently passing net neutrality laws against the commercial interests of many very powerful telecommunication incumbents. Ones with as many lobbyists as any industry has. A few weeks ago I was in Golden Gate Park and realized that nothing like that could ever exist in China, nor could Central Park in Manhattan. It would have long been made into condos by a property developer with guanxi. That’s China, with its relentless and uncompromising drive toward material wealth.

    Secondly, US corporations don’t have to follow US laws when they hand off responsibility to a local/regional firm. Foxconn, for example. In other industries, sweatshops have existed for a reason. Look at P&G or Coca-Cola, who have been wreaking havoc over rainforests across the globe for decades. There may be laws, but who’s gonna enforce them? And against a foreign intermediary? There’s no law that can teach human decency. Laws are designed for punitive purposes, not preventative. By the time you punish someone, the damage has already been done.

    Right, as you say, they hand off responsibility. It’s up to lawmakers in that country to determine and enforce the law. In many cases, like Coca-Cola and Foxconn, they enter into a morally reprehensible space. Capitalism is not without victims, but I don’t think this equates to any kind of legal or moral equivalency between China and America.

    I think that law can guide people toward human decency when the system of enforcement works and the penalty is greater than the reward of circumventing the law. In China, this is clearly not working, which is part of the reason why China is rightly known as a society lacking ethics.

    Just me throwing in my few cents……… Your boss in US was an Indian lady you said? They don’t have a good reputation as being “fair” managers….

    Really? I’ve never heard that.

    The #1 goal of any US publically owned company is to make as much profit as possible, so they don’t care about hiring ethical people, they care about getting profits without breaking the law (or getting caught breaking the law). I think deep down, the US and China are about the same. They try to give a different appearance on the surface but people everywhere have the same motives and drives.

    All companies have an imperative to be profitable but I think it’s another leap of logic entirely to say that this means that US and China are the same. It’s not uncommon for companies in America to devote time and resources, which they could be using to generate additional profit, to do benevolent things like community outreach. Especially in economically prosperous places like San Francisco or New York City.

    #45201
    raschmidt
    raschmidt
    Participant

    I worked for an Indian company in Iowa.  None of my direct managers were Indians, but the mid-level management was.  I heard a lot of complaints about them.  Same at another company I worked at, this one had headquarters in Des Moines but hired a large number of Indians.

    I’m not saying it’s true, I’m just saying that I have heard many complaints about them that I have also heard about Chinese managers here.  But I would also have the same complaint about many American managers.

    My 2nd part was trying to point out that US managers are often the same, and the OP’s expectation that US managers would act differently from Chinese ones is a bit short-sighted.  The end goal of any company is to make money, and people are motivated by the same thing.

    These projects that companies get involved in, the community outreach programs, they aren’t supported because a company wants to spend money.  They are supported because companies know the public is watching them and it’s good publicity.  It’s great advertisement to have your companies name associated with charity or something positive in the community.  I think businesses here would pick up on it pretty quickly if their was more media oversight of companies and awareness of activities like that.  Nobody ever got approval from their home office to do some community works project because it was the right thing to do, they got it because they told their home office how great of publicity it would be.

    #45202
    Charlie
    Charlie
    Keymaster

    I worked for an Indian company in Iowa. None of my direct managers were Indians, but the mid-level management was. I heard a lot of complaints about them. Same at another company I worked at, this one had headquarters in Des Moines but hired a large number of Indians.

    I see what you’re saying. My point is, that sounds like a problem with the culture of that company and not their ethnicity.

    But I would also have the same complaint about many American managers. My 2nd part was trying to point out that US managers are often the same, and the OP’s expectation that US managers would act differently from Chinese ones is a bit short-sighted.

    I’m an American manager so I’m biased, but I disagree. This is just anecdotal evidence, but foreign managers in China that I know are noticeably more tolerant, patient, and generous with people they manage than local managers. Western business culture is vastly different from Chinese business culture – here it’s a lot more “get what you want” and cut-throat.

    These projects that companies get involved in, the community outreach programs, they aren’t supported because a company wants to spend money. They are supported because companies know the public is watching them and it’s good publicity. It’s great advertisement to have your companies name associated with charity or something positive in the community. I think businesses here would pick up on it pretty quickly if their was more media oversight of companies and awareness of activities like that. Nobody ever got approval from their home office to do some community works project because it was the right thing to do, they got it because they told their home office how great of publicity it would be.

    I think this is true in a lot of cases, but not all, or even enough to fairly make a generalization like that. After spending a lot of time in the Chinese business world I have a newfound appreciation for the equanimity and relative enlightenment of companies in my home country.

    #45203

    897934-884
    Participant

    Thanks for the in-depth response, Charlie.  All around great points.

    I don’t think that the legal atmosphere in China can be fairly called equivalent to the United States for many reasons. 

    Very much agreed.   At least the US system has independent press with the authority to investigate whatever they see fit.  Though I am admittedly behind/lazy on following precedents of law and order in both countries.

      A few weeks ago I was in Golden Gate Park and realized that nothing like that could ever exist in China, nor could Central Park in Manhattan. It would have long been made into condos by a property developer with guanxi.

    I find myself thinking this on a constant basis – particularly in Chengdu.  They just don’t have parks here.  They have paved walkways through hideously landscaped nooks of the city – most of which are just leftovers from 60+ years ago.  Any indigenous vegetation was bulldozed long ago and replaced with randomness.  All hills have been and still are being flattened.  This being the Sichuan basin, you’d think Chengdu would be a city of bamboo forests.  Fat chance there.

    Now consider those parks which you’d mentioned;  massive, gorgeous swaths of indigenous greenery occupying the most prime acres of real estate in the world.   Big-time respect to Frederick Law Olmstead and Calvert Vaux. Those guys were centuries before their time.

    #45220

    untruthful American
    Participant

    Hi Guys,

    You are misleading. I didn’t want to talk about law (US law) or US people’s ethics.

    Charlie, I know you are citizen of US and Germany.

    goatboy, you must be a US citizen.

    I am talking about their wisdom and their view of history.

    1. I don’t expect how good the US is, I just want to warn them for making their own society like China. Do you want to live in an environment where only the worst political trash can survive like in my case?

    2. I made comments about US’s technology/creativity combined with China’s maneuvers to manipulating people. These two will create a worst world.

    3. Also the current condition of China is a result of  2200 years of reverse election.

    4. Without the help of the western countries, the Chinese rulers can’t totally control the villages. The administrative division below town can’t be controlled totally.

    5. Charlie, we are just engineers. Things like bribery, corruption is confidential for us too. But if I knew that and whistle-blew, the links below tell how high the risk is:

    http://www.letscorp.net/archives/85805

    http://www.letscorp.net/archives/83424

    6. And the most sad thing I found is I compare the Chinese brain-washing with US propagandized values, I found they are the same thing except for the US one is more successful.

     

    #45326

    untruthful American
    Participant

    I don’t think using this political trash will help the US company in projects,

    they can’t get any good from it besides the Indian lady felt good.

    #45327
    Charlie
    Charlie
    Keymaster

    5. Charlie, we are just engineers. Things like bribery, corruption is confidential for us too. But if I knew that and whistle-blew, the links below tell how high the risk is: http://www.letscorp.net/archives/85805

    Yikes. That is scary, but it’s hard to tell what happened in that particular case. I wouldn’t mention it unless the windfall for a potential whistle-blower weren’t enormous though. It is potentially enormous, and in some cases more money than most people in China will make in their lifetime.

    #45342

    untruthful American
    Participant

    Charlie,

    I worked for that company too, that company is a joint-venture of China and Belgium Bell at the beginning since 1984. It is a totally corrupted one. The story is too long to tell, let’s focus the topic on US one.

    #45389

    untruthful American
    Participant

    Update.

    I think silence can only make the Chinese political trash thinks nasty maneuvers can be successful in this world, they can eat others always.

    I decided to do something for my lost 12 years’ trust. I sent a well worded email to the highest level of that company. Yes, J Tucci, J burton, Krakauer. I told them what happened, expressed if possible, I will not work for Americans anymore, attached with evidences.

    I told them I didn’t expect them to reply to me. I know in America, they have a saying, “Don’t open that can of bug.” So always it is the Chinese low level to pay for every country’s ugliness. That needs to be stopped. So I open that can of bug for them and throw it at their face. Told them I left, so I don’t care if you don’t change anything. After all, it is you to pay with your money. If you like, just keep it this way.

    If those Chinese political trash only believes power and maneuvers

    #45532
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