- This topic has 14 replies, 6 voices, and was last updated 10 years ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Hey folks,
Saw this video floating around wechat today, watched it, and was pretty blah about the whole thing. It’s a decent enough video and the concepts are right on, but, for those who are into language hacks, wildly unoriginal.
I remember something that turned me on to Chengdu when I first came to check it out was that a ton of foreigners speak good Chinese. I’ve found that people who speak good Chinese all have perspectives on how to do it best. It usually takes a certain amount of fanaticism, and so language acquisition has become a very serious point of interest. It something I think about all the time so I figured maybe you guys do to?
I was thinking maybe we can swap some perspectives, theories, schools of thought?
I personally am a khatzumoto disciple. He writes this blog All Japanese All The Time and encapsulates his philosophy with “You don’t learn a language, you get used to it.” The guy is a complete nut, which maybe resonates a little, and learned fluent japanese in a year in the middle of the US. He’s got a bunch of great language hacks that I think are great. His blog also synthesizes (sort of, he’s pretty longwinded) a bunch of self-help books for productivity hacks and basic “learn stuff quicker” tips. Fun read and everything he promotes is what this guy in the video boringly talks about.
Other basics: I try to do 75 flashcards a day just to keep it going. All of my flashcards are sentence inputs, not words. I was trying to read an article a day but I’m just too much of a bum. I’m recently trying to start writing. It is really, really tough. I fancy myself a pretty literate dude, and trying to get the Chinese language to comply with my more complex sentence ambitions has been a struggle.
Enough for now. Anyone have any input on best/fastest/most fun methods?
A few methods that I’ve employed over the years:
- Date people who don’t speak English, forcing you to learn and use Chinese out of necessity
- Don’t live with expats. In the 8 years I’ve been in Chengdu, I’ve never lived with another native English speaker.
- Write down every word you learn in pinyin and characters. I did this for the first 3 years that I was in China and have books filled with Chinese. Eventually I switched to using Pleco word lists on iPhone, which you can conveniently review as flashcards when you have free time
- Get a job that requires you to speak/read/write Chinese on a daily basis
As I’ve noticed with other people who’ve been learning Chinese for many years, once I reached reach a certain level of proficiency the rewards for committing more time to structured learning became less and less.
There are a handful of posts about learning Chinese on Chengdu Living here which cover some of the topics above, as well as listing specific tools like iPhone and iPad apps: Learning Chinese
Oh, also, two interesting people to check out about language hacking are Benny the Polyglot and Tim Ferriss. This blog post published last month is really good: 12 Rules for Learning Foreign Languages in Record Time
Charlie when I first got to China, I had studied about a month of basic Chinese grammar. I vividly remember an older Suzhou woman (where I first lived for a year) telling me what I need to do. I could understand zero of it, but at one point she laughed so hard that I had her son type the characters into my dictionary. At this point, the woman waddles off and I’m left looking at the sentence “Find a long-haired dictionary.”
I’m with you on all your points. I have a Chinese roommate now and have never had a foreign roommate in the past. I’ve been involved in the Chinese dating scene but haven’t really found a relationship that has lasted long term. The job thing is something that hurts me because I think it would be mad useful. Thing is, I don’t want anything more than a part time job (10 hours a week). I’ve got a unique working arrangement, as you know, and can do everything from my house. So if you know of any magic part time job that is chill, fun, and would force me to speak Chinese, I’m all ears.
The point you make is ideological more than anything, though, and I agree. I’m a believer in putting myself in situations where, even at my being my laziest, I still have to speak/learn Chinese.
My question for you is this: What do you do later on? These immersion strategies were really, really useful early on and even in middle stages. I’m not advanced yet but I’m far enough along where I can do most everything I need to do. Language does not hinder my life, but my Chinese is far from where I want it to be.
Do you have any strategies for later on in the learning process? Reading and writing are good theoretically but hard to maintain. This is where my man Khatz comes in because he really advocates you read/write about things that you care about. Like comics? Read comics. Dig video games? Play video games. Just do it all in your desired language.
Last, I’m real familiar with both of these guys. I actually just read the 4 hour work week in Chinese as my first little project because everyone and their mother has been tlaking about tim ferris recently. I’ve also looked into Benny pretty extensively in the past. I even watched his video on China. Dude definitely can pick stuff up but he acknowledges that he only ever gets so far with most languages. Ferris in that video post also defines fluency pretty loosely as the ability to get by in your desired language, the ability to describe anything that you want to describe even if you don’t know the word. I think I’m on board with that, but it also belies that perhaps these strategies are perhaps too front-end focused.
Longwinded, I am.
Also, at risk of being excessive, Ferris’ definition of fluency makes his promise for the post doable:
“How to be fluent in a few months” is not that crazy when you’re just trying to be comfortable enough to describe things in a new language.
Plus, what they talk about is pretty in sync with Khatz. Major Khatz difference is fanatacism, and he also talks about being working level proficient in a year (reading, writing, speaking) which is truly nuts.
Agree completely with Charlie’s points. Mostly this one:
Date people who don’t speak English, forcing you to learn and use Chinese out of necessitySleeping dictionary my friend. Most fun way to learn a language. 🙂
Best way to learn language fast – none
Best way to learn language good – see Charlie, esp. dating part 🙂
I feel as if I have neglected my opportunity to learn the language. Though part of my excuse is that I am relatively spoiled in terms of how often I’m required to speak Chinese.
My girlfriend’s English, so no dating scene for me.
My room-mate is the Greek guy that I came here with, and I’m stupidly lucky to have a landlord who speaks impeccable English.
The company at which I work puts English fluency as a requirement – depending on the department, they won’t hire you unless you speak English.
Regarding Charlie’s book suggestion. I think it’s brilliant, I read it in a post before I came here and ran out to buy a little pocket book to keep my Chinese. I did my tone diagrams in the first page then started with numbers and basic phrases. Then as soon as I got here, I’ve never touched the thing. Apart from one emergency situation involving a lack of toilet paper.
I am the ignorant laowai, and I’m not happy about it. I’ll cram as much as I can in the next three months, then try again if I get another chance at Chengdu life in a year’s time. Which brings me to a question:
What can one do to maintain the language outside of the country? Should I venture into China town every day? Should I address the restaurant owners in their native tongue?
The job thing is something that hurts me because I think it would be mad useful. Thing is, I don’t want anything more than a part time job (10 hours a week). I’ve got a unique working arrangement, as you know, and can do everything from my house. So if you know of any magic part time job that is chill, fun, and would force me to speak Chinese, I’m all ears.
I’m envious of your lifestyle. I left the state and came to Asia for that, and then ended up working just as much as I did in the States. I wouldn’t sweat it though, you can reach the same level of proficiency on your own if you’re suitably motivated.
I’m not advanced yet but I’m far enough along where I can do most everything I need to do. Language does not hinder my life, but my Chinese is far from where I want it to be. Do you have any strategies for later on in the learning process? Reading and writing are good theoretically but hard to maintain. This is where my man Khatz comes in because he really advocates you read/write about things that you care about. Like comics? Read comics. Dig video games? Play video games.
You perfectly describe the plateau, where your skill level isn’t truly fluent, but it’s good enough to communicate everything important. Most people won’t go past this level but in my experience, the ones that do have specific goals that Mandarin helps them achieve. Goals exactly like you mention: reading books or comics in Chinese, watching movies in Chinese without subtitles, practicing kung fu, learning mahjong, etc.
Last, I’m real familiar with both of these guys. I actually just read the 4 hour work week in Chinese as my first little project because everyone and their mother has been tlaking about tim ferris recently.
That’s impressive – I don’t imagine that’s a particularly easy book to read.
@Callum RE: maintain language outside of country
Hate to say it but, I’d say you wont, regardless of a plan. The way you’ve described your time here is basically avoiding opportunities, for example:
– Because fluency in English is a requirement at the office doesn’t mean if you initiate a conversation in Chinese they wont happily reply in Chinese, and teach you some words. You also communicate with these people at lunch or after work sometimes I assume? Take the opportunity, it’s literally, *right in front of you*
– Roommate speaking English doesn’t mean anything, you are surrounded by so many mainlanders who, should you choose to be a little more adventurous and pop your foreigner bubble, you can talk with. It isn’t easy, but that’s how you learn a language – don’t just constantly look for excuses to speak the one you already speak.
– Speaking to overseas restaurant owners in Chinese may last you a whole whopping 1 minute before you leave. You can exchange hello and they’ll say (in English) where in China did you live and you’ll quickly get the feeling that they’re busy (because they are :D) and leave. Not sure how much ‘maintenance’ that’ll provide. Try rosetta stone.
“neglected my opportunity to learn the language” — yeah, seems so, unfortunately. Hope you get a chance to change that 😀 Good luck.
I feel as if I have neglected my opportunity to learn the language. Though part of my excuse is that I am relatively spoiled in terms of how often I’m required to speak Chinese.
Although being required to speak Chinese is frustrating and stressful at first, in the long run it’s worth it because getting past those awkward first stages will allow you communicate with people on a more meaningful level here, which unlocks all the greatest things that China has to offer. Simple things like short conversations with old Chinese people who tell stories about their youth are fascinating. Things like that require Chinese. I find that Chinese people who speak English also tend to have a different mindset since command of the English language means they’ve been exposed to a different way of thinking and approaching problems. The people who don’t speak English are more “pure” Chinese in their way of thinking and getting to know them is worth it, in my experience.
I’ll cram as much as I can in the next three months, then try again if I get another chance at Chengdu life in a year’s time. Which brings me to a question: What can one do to maintain the language outside of the country? Should I venture into China town every day? Should I address the restaurant owners in their native tongue?
For most people learning Chinese takes years – it’s going to be much more difficult for people who come to Chengdu for a year or even two. Adjust your goals accordingly.
As far as maintaining your Chinese skills overseas, it’s going to be tough. You have to be in a situation where you’re reading, writing, or speaking in Chinese on a regular basis. I’ll leave it to you to figure out what kind of situation that would be possible in. Honestly, most people’s Chinese skills will fade when they’re not in China unless they’re actively pursuing it. And most people probably won’t pursue it because they payoff is insignificant for most people when you’re not in China.
The way you’ve described your time here is basically avoiding opportunities
You’ve got me there, Rick. Even now as I’m finding the confidence to converse shortly with our artists, who have the lowest English level, I’m getting complimented on my language and it feels great.
Simple things like short conversations with old Chinese people who tell stories about their youth are fascinating. Things like that require Chinese. I find that Chinese people who speak English also tend to have a different mindset since command of the English language means they’ve been exposed to a different way of thinking and approaching problems. The people who don’t speak English are more “pure” Chinese in their way of thinking and getting to know them is worth it, in my experience.
Inspirational words there Charlie. I’ve definitely noticed a correlation between how much English someone speaks and their personality. I’ll make a point to get into some more meaningful conversations. That even seems like a meaningful goal.
I guess I can just concentrate on reading Chinese while I’m away. Aside from finding a language partner among the international students at my Uni, I’m doubtful that I’ll get a real opportunity.
You guys give me hope. In high school, I thought I’d never even want learn a language. Now there’s nothing I want more than to have Mandarin fluency on my CV.
That’s good – then take the positive feelings of trying, and make a conscious decision to try more frequently, that’s the only way – shift in your own attitude towards forcing those circumstances, and avoiding the crutch of falling back onto English because it’s easier. Good luck 😀
I’m envious of your lifestyle. I left the state and came to Asia for that, and then ended up working just as much as I did in the States. I wouldn’t sweat it though, you can reach the same level of proficiency on your own if you’re suitably motivated.
Ups and downs man. I recognize that I’ve got it pretty sweet. Downs are it gets lonely and it takes a massive amount of self control that, as a newly christened 24 year old, I am laboring to develop. I hate wasted time more than most things and I find myself wasting so much time “being my own boss” that I often wake up and wish a dude would just tell me what to do. With that said, the problem isn’t my arragnement so much as my expectations for myself on what I can get done.
You perfectly describe the plateau, where your skill level isn’t truly fluent, but it’s good enough to communicate everything important. Most people won’t go past this level but in my experience, the ones that do have specific goals that Mandarin helps them achieve. Goals exactly like you mention: reading books or comics in Chinese, watching movies in Chinese without subtitles, practicing kung fu, learning mahjong, etc.
I think you’re right with specificity of goals. I broadly say I like to do things Chinese and develop hobbies. A few days ago I decided to get good at two things these next three months: Majiang and pool. I’d played majiang 5 times or so before starting this last spring festival. This one is easy. I played a week ago, kind of noticed where I didn’t get it, and then downloaded a game for my phone. Been addicted to it and have gotten a lot better. Now whenever I go home I stop and watch a few hands at our local majiang parlor. I’m getting to the point where I can read the tiles enough and organize them in my head fast enough where I think I can sit with the old pros. Still probably lose money, but still.
And regarding the book, I couldn’t have done it without pleco. I found a free pdf download and plugged it into the pdf reader on pleco. Any word I didn’t know I looked up with an easy tap. Problem with this is I don’t retain as much. I try not to slip me up though. I’m doing it largely to try to internalize grammatical structures and just to get over the hump of reading my first long format piece in Chinese. I’m trying to find some Science Fiction next.
I think the more specific your goals, the better. I also think the fewer the better. Choose one or two things to do at once. Being like “I want to be a dope cook and get into majiang and start reading and also have a really active social life and do well with work” just leaves you flustered, disappointed, and likely achieving none of them. It’s the classic how do you eat an elephant scenario.
@callum, early Chinese learning is both really rewarding and really humiliating. I say it is rewarding because every single thing you learn is relevant. I remember the first three months of study I felt like every new chapter taught me something I could go out and use, or something I would start to hear in conversations.It was humiliating for me because I felt constantly out of sorts, constantly without the equal or upper hand, and constantly the dumbest guy in the room, at least in terms of what would manifest in a conversation. Trudge on, though, because it is one of my favorite parts of living in China. I can also say without any hesitation it is the thing I am most proud of in my wee life as of yet, mostly because I know how much persistence it takes.
Rick is right. Engage in language wars. Use Chinese whenever you can. If someone hits you with english, fire back with Chinese. It’s part of the game.
A slight piece of input. If your a textbook user don’t go for Short-term spoken Chinese or any of those crappy books. Get yourself on Amazon and buy the New Concept Chinese books.
The reason for this is that the other books are extreeeeeeeemly bland and uninspired. They teach way too many pieces of vocabulary in each unit and in addition teach you useless words. Beginners don’t need to differentiate between a ball point pen and a fountain pen (yes I have seen a book for beginners that does this).
Here’s a link… (edit) *sigh* links never work for me. Try searching for 新概念汉语:课本 . there are 4 books in the series so far. Each has 40 lessons.
Another thing I’d like to mention is the Michel Thomas method which I found really useful. It can be found on torrent somewhere or at ludicrously high cost.
Here’s a link… (edit) *sigh* links never work for me. Try searching for 新概念汉语:课本 .
I’m not sure where the best place to buy this is, but here’s one: 新概念汉语:课本
- The forum ‘General Discussion’ is closed to new topics and replies.