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As for the ‘Millionaire’ money prize from Ruff, one has to go through a tourny and win every fight to do quite well. And fights prior to reaching the championship, they range from 5k rmb to 20k. And of course Ruff isnt sponsored by the Chinese gov’t. I think they are a priv entity that has contracts with the gov’t.
As for people coming to China coaching for as being sponsored, it’s tons of misses than hits. A great example is a 3rd degree Carlson Black belt (bjj based) teaching in Beijing (China Top Team). He saw an opportunity and been here since 2007, he thought he could make a good living here.. Bought his entire family from Rio… Of course in Beijing on a gov’t salary isnt a going make ends meet (6k RMB per month). This is the guy who trained a fighter, first ever Chinese fighter in the UFC mind you. He left China and did not tell his team, hell he told me when i first met him at a Ruff event. His words “Chinese people are cheap.”
Fighters in the west BARELY make enough to survive, being an MMA fighter is a lifestyle, glorified by the media, harsh by reality. That is why i didnt pursue it (that and losing brain cells while getting my head bashed in isnt a smart move long term). Something to ask, what does Sanshou fighters do after they graduate from Uni? Will they work in a professional club that just trains and teaches or will they do something else for work? Had a few fighters come to the club and train, they expressed interests in BJJ, but couldnt train often because they had no money and work was hard to find… 30 RMB per class btw…
Also the diff between Chinese gyms and priv gyms is that Gyms in China are all inclusive, everything is housed in one stadium. They pay trainers to come teach, from all over the world. At most probably 10k per month? Prob less. The turn rate for coaches staying is quite low.
Another example of this is when 2 bjj black belts were sponsored by a gym in China, govt gym. These two black belts are pretty good, but left due to the terms in their contracts and were asked to do ‘shady’ things. Like promote 2 Chinese fighters per year to ‘Black belt rank’ in bjj. They disagreed on those terms (and more) and left China, also gave warnings to future coaches for that gym.
As for CTT (China Top Team), they are for front runner for UFC to be in China. Andy Wang is their head bjj and mma coach now (i think). Since trying to break the market in China is near impossible, the UFC decided to go to the Philippine, but will also do events in Macau.
One final note for the ‘millionaire’ prize money from RUFF.. While my trip last week to HK, i met a trainer who knows the winners of Ruff’s competition. He said RUFF has yet to pay the 1mill prize money to the fighters based in HK. With that.. I would take everything with a grain of salt while training/fighting in China… It’s still backwards here and lacking….
I personally see MMA gaining much ground in years to come within China. MMA is the despot to old world Kung Fu sensibility, which although looks great in period movie epics on high wires, otherwise doesn’t pack too heavy a punch into the mainstream consciousness. I was watching a National Kung Fu demonstration (filmed) with a friend recently, and it just felt so dated. Another art form fading into the history books.
Interestingly I learned a while back that there are some state sponsored bodybuilders working out at Sichuan University Gymnasium, and I suspect that they too are to be relegated to poorly attended auditoriums as part of the sports plight.
Short attention spans and piss poor personal resolve make master of none.
@JerryS fascinating stuff. Chinese sports are very corrupt in general, so it doesn’t surprise me that trainers are paid low wages, asked to do shady things, and eventually are “forced” to leave. I also remember very clearly in Hohhot, that the RUFF people were at Shangri-la (along with the HK trainers/fighters) while the Chinese fighters were all in a three star Chinese hotel. I waited with the fighters – including champs – post-fight for an hour till a bus came to get us and take us back. Bus for every1 else had left long ago.
At the same time, i was very impressed with the RUFF organization and their overall clarity of purpose. The Chinese side, as can be read out of the Global Times article linked above, is much more complicated.
Money is a big issue, as always, and is probably the #1 factor for the decline of kungfu. And MMA, according to what you are talking about, faces the same issue.
I heard though, that the MMA fighters in Xi’an were paid to train. They said sponsored by the Wushu Association – but GT article says Sports Admin … i wonder what is really going on.
Ruff could be here to stay, they are a good company vs ‘local mma events,’ which is a sorry excuse of fighting and just glorifying the Chinese fighters vs D ranked foreign fighters… Ruff is already on CCTV in Chongqing, broadcasting to the city peoples. Like every new organization there will be trouble and problems, hope them the best to ‘ruff’ it out heh. Infact, i wouldnt mind being a ref for their fights. All i see is the one dude who always reffing fights. Once my contract is up for my current job, ill spend more time dedicating to spread of bjj/mma in Chengdu.
Treating international crowd is a priority, Chinese based fighter.. Not so much.. Could be the same in many schools in China, if there is a foreign teacher, you bet your ass he/she is being treated like a king vs other Chinese teachers. But Ruff is giving these guys (Chinese fighter) an opportunity. Fight for money, win and get treated well, lose and you’re on your ass. Very similar to fighter in the UFC.. They just cut 15 people today…
That is why i focus on the recreational side of martial arts/bjj. Everyone loves it, those who come trains with me has high regards. First and foremost is safety for others. I cant stand if someone gets hurt, ill hurt the dude who did the hurting :). Recreational Martial arts is for all ages and classes.
I’m a beginner but I will definitely pay a few hundred rmb for a seminar by a pro mma fighter, so count me in, though I work weekends until 5pm so that might be an issue.
Despite China’s relationship with martial arts it’s hard for me to picture MMA really taking off here. If something like Pride in Japan can’t be profitable it’s hard to imagine that a profitable fighting league could even exist in China, which then brings us to the question if the state will sponsor an unprofitable league. It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.
In the US there are people passionate about martial arts and MMA basically wherever you go. Los Angeles is filled with BJJ, Minnesota is filled with wrestlers, NYC has everything, etc. But even in the little places like Wisconsin you can find black belts who run gyms with serious fighters training there. Most of the people training are middle class folks who are just passionate about training and fighting, they’re friendly people but this is just what they’re into – it isn’t about money at all.
How many people are there like that in China, that are that passionate about training martial arts and competing against others? We have been struggling for years to even find simple things here in Chengdu like a muay thai gym, and this is a city of 14 million.
MMA is very much a macho sport of tough guys. Those kind of personalities in China are extremely rare – the biggest domestic role models and celebrities are people like Jay Chou and Andy Lau, there are no equivalents of macho Western personalities like Vin Diesel or Jason Statham. Just an example, but the difference between Western and Eastern culture insofar as tough guy culture is very apparent.
Quote:Chinese sports areChina is very corrupt in generalFixed that for you
Quote:Money is a big issue, as always, and is probably the #1 factor for the decline of kungfu. And MMA, according to what you are talking about, faces the same issue.That is interesting – there isn’t much money in other martial arts around the world, but many of them like BJJ are flourishing. What do you think makes kung fu different? Why do you think kung fu hasn’t caught on overseas? Can anything be done to cause it to rise again?
To me, our entire (Western) understanding of kung fu is a remnant of the kung fu film era of the 70’s. Bruce Lee, Shaw Brothers, etc. Cool stuff, but definitely from a bygone era. These days you mostly see other martial arts in action films like krav maga and kali/eskrima, etc (the Bourne movies and others, a lot of weapon-based combat).
My theory on BJJ is this: BJJ consists of: 25% sport (tournament stuff), 25% self defense (use for street), 25% MMA/Vale Tudo and 25% recreational BJJ. Those who train bjj on average do it about 2-3 times per week, which is at 1.5-2 hours per session. A vast majority of BJJ practitioners are recreational BJJ. These guys have full time jobs and uses BJJ as an outlet to relieve stress and gain back their sanity. There is a saying; ‘Jiu Jitsu Salva,’ or Jiu Jitsu Saves. This martial art is a great outlet for everyday people. Also gives them the sense to kick ass when needed.
So how and why is BJJ more popular than most martial arts out there? Well sparring for one. Not sure in other martial arts, but rolling mimics real life situations and in a controlled class room setting, it is very safe. Not only that, with each blood and sweat that is dripped, this creates a bonding between teammates, sense of commendatory. Is this ‘Macho’ in a sense? Of course, it’s a dude trying to break limbs (either standing or on the ground), which in turn tries to end the fight as quickly as possible.
How is BJJ different from other ‘Chinese Martial Arts?’ For one BJJ is an art that is hard to master. Missing a week of class can really set you back vs other teammates. While not training from a few months could bring you down a stripe or two. Also, BJJ encourages one to improve and ‘letting ego go.’ Sure there will be douches in every gym, those people you tend to avoid. Also BJJ brings people together from different classes, i’ve trained with hedge fund managers, to policeman to out of work 20 something year old’s! You can see why how great his martial art is and why people train it (i been doing it for 12 years).
Which is why i think BJJ will succeed in China. A few schools in Beijing has over 60-80 monthly members.. A good income for a full time BJJ instructor. Of course that is my main goal in the end, to have 100-200 students in Chengdu. Will i reach that goal, prob not, but i am near on my goal for this year, 30 total unique members for bjj! Small progress baby, 95% locals and 5% foreigners! Also those who are under me progress pretty fast and has high regards to how i teach, while the people who trains are very friendly and courteous (they better be or risk having a broken limb :P). There is no competition yet, but that will change in the future. With me being at the bottom now, i am creating a brand for myself. I highly doubt a Brazilian will come to Chengdu… Why leave Rio for.. This?
As for Chinese Martial Arts Kung Fu based.. It’s a fantasy, a romantic obsession that is nothing but theatrical parlor tricks (that is portrayed in the media). It creates a mentality that ‘i am better than you and i already won without fighting you.’ Same goes for many other martial arts as well. People can either love this or be turned off by this. Watch the ‘Iron Ring’ on BET, a shitty excuse for an MMA program that tries glorifies ‘Chinese Martial Arts’ in an MMA setting, but fails because the instructors are too cool to fight. When i do research on martial arts in NYC, i am always directed to some kungfu site and how xyz African American went to China to learn Kungfu or some shit. A romantic obsession that is created by dubbed kungfu ‘Iron shirt or Deadly 7 fist panda strike’ movies. That’s just ‘Martial,’ different story if it’s the ‘Arts’ side (healing aspects of Tai Chi and Kung Fu ect).
As times change, so does perspective. The only way i see Chinese Kung Fu or Sanda or Krav Maga or XYZ martial art to flourish (in today’s world), is to see how effective it is in the cage, with rules that protects both fighters. Of course there will be backlash like ‘oww we cant do that, because our art is too deadly and it’s made to kill and maim.’ Well, how would you know if it’s effective if you never fought? Doing ‘Kata’ 1 billion times makes you good at that move, but how can you replicate it when your heart is beating at 150-80 beats per minute, when your cardio is being pushed to the max, when your opponent is dancing around looking for an opportunity to strike and when fighting is changing levels (ground then standing up)? Am i knocking those marital arts? A little, but i really do want to see new styles in MMA. Spice things up a little and change the course for MMA!
Joe Rogan said it best that MMA would be great for China, because he sees the different styles infusing with current MMA standing. Lyoto Machida uses his Karate style quite effectively in his fights. Anderson Silva uses his Muah Thai beautifully to demolish his opponents. Damien Maia uses BJJ to destroy his opponents. Sakuraba with his Japanese base catch wrestling. Junior Dos Santos with his boxing.. And the list goes on! Once that barrier is broken, then the love obsession will continue for Eastern Martial Arts! I really do want to see telepathic no touch chi kung in the cage.. Esp vs Jon Jones.. Hate that guy!
And the only way for MMA to succeed in China (my opinion) is for the govt to be fully behind it.. Which in turn will lead to private entities to create their gyms. Quite the opposite from the US, where it’s all private funds.
Also.. Donnie Yuen is a purple belt in BJJ under Thomas Fan (?) In Hong kong. I trained at Thomas’ gym in HK two weeks ago, they welcomed me with open arms! With Donnie being a big movie star, it shows the small progression on how BJJ/MMA is having on Chinese movies today!
Quote:So how and why is BJJ more popular than most martial arts out there?Sparring is really important, BJJ in general is so much safer to practice than other martial arts. I got elbowed in the face while rolling with a white belt in Chicago and bled profusely but everyone in BJJ seems to joke about white belts being the most dangerous because they have no control of their body. With higher level BJJ guys, it’s very elegant and graceful compared to other martial arts. Human chess, they call it, which you can clearly see at higher skill levels.
Quote:Is this ‘Macho’ in a sense? Of course, it’s a dude trying to break limbs (either standing or on the ground), which in turn tries to end the fight as quickly as possible.What I meant was I noticed a huge difference in MMA gyms and in BJJ gyms. Within the MMA crowd they tend to be more confrontational, have more tribal tattoos, and there are a lot of bully-types. In contrast, basically all of the BJJ gyms and people that I met were very warm, friendly, and humble. Even guys at the highest level of the sport like Marcelo Garcia (that guy is as deadly as he is warm and friendly – incredible).
Quote:The biggest gyms in the world is BJJ based (Renzo Gracie in NYC).Just a quite side note… Marcelo’s gym blows away Renzo’s in NYC. A much friendlier and more encouraging place.
MMA _is_ taking off here. Although mostly sanda rules, there are more and more competitions inviting foreigners to compete with locals.
My buddy was in a bout around spring festival out in Xi Chang – prize money for his fight was 50k win/10k loss. There is another larger competition coming up (I don’t know the date, I can get it if people are interested in going). I played corner man for him at one of his other for-cash fights just outside of town and it was pretty good…they invited 3 or 4 Thai fighters up – every thai fighter won, even though in each case their opponent obviously misreported weight as they were all way smaller than their local fighter. They also had a 16 year old american training in Shanghai come in and said he was 21? or something with a 7-1 record, when in fact it was his first fight ever… so yeah, they are all a bit shady, but the point is, it’s *taking off* with increasing number of fights and higher prize money…
RE: “Doing ‘Kata’ 1 billion times makes you good at that move”
I don’t think you understand kata 😀 It’s not meant to make you good at any move. It’s a moment of concentration, focus, and demonstration of a specific set of moves strung together in ‘art’ – absolutely not intended to train someone for a fight…
The key to MMA’s growth here will be an iconic athlete, a superstar (as in Messi, or Tiger Woods or Bryant/Jordan). You get a major sports brand, like Nike to promote the shit out of this guy here. He comes and does promos. You film him holding a panda and saying “ni hao”. You put his name on shoes/t-shirts/bags etc. etc. If he’s young and handsome and charismatic, that’s a bonus. Oh shit, UFC and Nike got that guy already: Jerry S’ man, Jon Jones.
China had a chance with the Mongolian Were Wolf guy from China Top Team! The very first Chinese fighter to ever be in UFC. The sad thing is that he was too one dimensional. He can gather wins in smaller venues, but the big stage.. I.E.. UFC, one can not be too predictable. Also he wasnt too pretty to take pictures with Pandas. I guess his ears were too grotesque for the general public. To me those ears show respect and hours on the mats!
Fighters that China is currently producing really isn’t ‘B’ level, let along A quality as in Bellator or UFC. Watching Sanda or Sanshou fighters transition to MMA is kinda rough for the eyes… A majority of those fighters when fighting (see RUFF fights for example) are always looking for the Hail Mary knock out punch (also with the crowd screaming ‘go 110% isnt really helping the fighter’s IQ in the cage). A simple jab cross combo can really do damage to fighters winging their offense.
Those who won the RUFF One million RMB tournaments were very accomplished in their rightful arts prior to entering MMA. Examples are: Irshaad Sayed and Rodrigo Caporal. Irshaad is a great stand up fighter. Watching him fight in Ruff, he picks apart his opponents with basic boxing, his wrestling is questionable, but he is able to stand the fight up to where he can do his damage. Rodrigo is a BJJ Champ, really good BJJ base. Since China lack good and sound grappling, he just dominates all of his fights here. Why bring these 2 up? Well they are very good fighters who has a good foundation and understanding for MMA dynamics.
As for Kata.. Kata can be originated back to Karate, but in this sense, the way i used it, it’s just mimicking fighting movements with no partners around. All of those movements can be traced to fighting origins. Yet using it to fight trained fighters/athletes, it might not work. Something we both agree on :).
Machida transitioned his style of Karate and made it work for him in the cage. That’s why i would love to see Krav Maga, Kung Fu, JKD, Aikido or any other martial arts to be used in the cage. But the fallacy of many martial arts is that it creates the ‘my shit is better than yours’ type of mentality. With this backwards mindset, there can be no progression (in the MMA sense of the word). I trained with tons of US marines in the states (more than a few are my teammates, ex-marines).. Their stuff is legit, but really isnt that deadly against a trained martial artist (their words as well). I highly doubt anything comes close to their hand to hand combat, in any military groups around the world! Respect US Marines!!! 🙂
Bones BOO!
Irshaad Sayed fighting in Ruff recently. His opponent’s strategy, when getting hit, fall on his ass…
RE: Kata…jerry, dude, you’re not getting it – it’s a systematic performance. That’s where the ART is martial arts comes from. It’s almost like a form of meditation, it’s a focused performance – and while performing, after serious repetition and perfection of form, it becomes just that. It’s like a ballet, except with fighting moves….that’s it. It’s NOT meant to be something to train fighters, it’s not meant to use against fighters……. it’s ART. The fighting comes in a completely different form, sparring – and some people who train Karate or whatever don’t take part in sparring at all, and simply like the exercise and art side of things. BJJ is not art, it has no art, it’s purely practical submission and body manipulation. You can’t compare the two, and it’s as silly to comment on kata a as a fight-training method as it is to say bar fights are won by triangles. The reality is while training in fighting is great for self-defense, it often buffs up the trainee’s (over)self-confidence through a sport with rules, when in real life….there are no rules, and there are weapons, and unfortunately bjj doesn’t train against having a jagged edge shoved in your throat when you’re trying to work your kimura.
RE: MMA in China, it has NOTHING to do with competing with the UFC. I think it’s ridiculous to say MMA can’t grow in China because the level of fighters isn’t that of Alda, Jones, or St. Pierre or whomever, that’s not the point. As a sport it’s growing. Even if it’s a bunch of (b, to the world) level fighters against themselves, the point is it’s growing rapidly and there IS a culture growing around it. It’s not a competition with UFC or anything going on in the USA, it’s a sport and, eventually, like basketball or any other recently rapidly growing sport in China, will result in world-class fighters eventually. Again, growth here has nothing to do with the top quality fighter vs. UFC’s top fighter.
Oh..and re: the “fall on ass” comment bit, just caught that. Did you watch any early Royce Gracie in UFC fights? He often fought from a ground position. Falling on his ass was one of his major stragegies against bigger fighters – waiting for them to go in for the pounce, then latching on like a m’fer and working his way in. On that note, anyone who thinks “true” MMA is UFC, hasn’t seen original UFC when the Gracies put out their call for straight up brawls from any style. There weren’t rounds, pads, and strict rules….m’fers headbutt straight up knuckles on skull and grab what they can grab…minus things like thumbing eyes and other dirty shit of course. The point is, MMA is now a sport like any other, and a lot less like Blood Sport (which original UFC was closest to out of anything I’ve seen yet/since :D)
Quote:RE: MMA in China, it has NOTHING to do with competing with the UFCWord to that. I neither follow nor care for UFC as a sport to begin with. Too many memories of Tribal tat covered baseball cap wearing homies weighed down by inflated egos and oversize jewellery! Used to love those guys in the gyms. Not!! Total respect for the guys dedicated to it, I know how brutal their training regimes are. Absolute machines some of those guys.
MMA will I think eventually gain a foothold in China (sorry to repeat myself), defiant in the face of 100 million Korean Pop loving lady boys. It will just take some time and money, and eventually, at least some degree of regulation. I do see (and know) a number of guys training very seriously, some of them having even given up lifting to pursue BJJ, Muah Thai, etc. It’s my observation that guys training in ‘MMA’ here tend to be very reserved about it, and unless you know them personally you’d never know anything of their dedication. This of course isn’t dissimilar to back home. It stands to reason that the depth of China’s Martial Arts heritage will find it’s feet in the current (albeit slow) rising popularity of MMA as a pursuit and sport. Top tier sponsorship would be a huge bump, and something I imagine isn’t likely too far off.
@Rick: Frankie Edgar for me. But he’s broken my heart recently…
Quote:MMA _is_ taking off here.Where are the signs of it taking off? To my knowledge there has never been an MMA event in Chengdu. Have you ever heard of one? An event in Xichang (the middle of nowhere) doesn’t really signal explosive growth in my opinion.
Quote:There is another larger competition coming up (I don’t know the date, I can get it if people are interested in going)I’m interested – post that info if you got it.
Quote:The key to MMA’s growth here will be an iconic athlete, a superstar (as in Messi, or Tiger Woods or Bryant/Jordan). You get a major sports brand, like Nike to promote the shit out of this guy here. He comes and does promos. You film him holding a panda and saying “ni hao”. You put his name on shoes/t-shirts/bags etc. etc.I think you’re absolutely right, Ray. There are certain necessary components to creating conditions under which MMA can “take off”, and several of them are not currently present in China. One is emerging stars of the sport (like Chuck Liddell) and another is a stable institution that can be a vehicle for the spread of the sport (like UFC is, or Pride was). Another, I would argue, is training infrastructure which produces enough fighters to have high level people emerge, which is also not present (eg. JerryS runs the most recognized BJJ outfit in Chengdu with a dozen or so students currently, in a city of 10+ million people).
Quote:For the record, my favorite fighter of all time is Bas Rutten.Ever seen his self defense videos where he’s teaching you how to attack people with beer mugs and pool cues? The comedic factor is off the charts.
Quote:MMA in China, it has NOTHING to do with competing with the UFC. I think it’s ridiculous to say MMA can’t grow in China because the level of fighters isn’t that of Alda, Jones, or St. Pierre or whomever, that’s not the point. As a sport it’s growing. Even if it’s a bunch of (b, to the world) level fighters against themselves, the point is it’s growing rapidly and there IS a culture growing around it. It’s not a competition with UFC or anything going on in the USA, it’s a sport and, eventually, like basketball or any other recently rapidly growing sport in China, will result in world-class fighters eventually. Again, growth here has nothing to do with the top quality fighter vs. UFC’s top fighter.I disagree Rick, I think that UFC plays a large role in the expansion of MMA in any country because it is the standard bearer. Making the argument that UFC is irrelevant in China is like saying that the NBA is irrelevant in China. People on the court are wearing NBA gear and looking up to NBA players, just as MMA practitioners in China are watching UFC. It plays a big role and UFC knows that, which is why it’s been actively targeting expansion in China since 2010.
Also, you keep saying it’s growing, please point out the signs of that because I have not seen many at all. A few years ago there was the prospect of a world class fighter emerging from China, Tiequan Zhang who was undefeated, but that hope seems to have dried up since he’s lost 4/5 of his last matches. As we all know, fighters who lose like that tend to not stick around.
A year ago Mark Fisher, managing director of UFC in China said “It’s very important to build local heroes in each market. China is a market where we have such tremendous potential. Once we have local heroes who are successful in the UFC, it will make a world of difference. Hence these programs.”
He was talking about Zhang, who hasn’t won a match since then. He’s right though, China needs a star to propel this to the next level and put more people through the system which develops competitive fighters who win. Otherwise this will be just like soccer, with hundreds of millions of Chinese watching foreigners do it right while the domestic system perpetually produces losers.
So much to say. Zhang Tiequan is actually a protoge of the “original” MMA guys in China, of which there are four, including Ai Hao Lin and Liu Hai Long, so he is basically second generation coming out of a tiny, tiny base. The fighters following in his footsteps are better than he is, have better training … and there are more of them. Currently, maybe 100 fighters in China that have competed in an MMA setting and did not embarrass themselves. These guys are the next step in a pyramid of growth, I think it will continue, but the chances of it getting choked off in its infancy are great. Another dismal UFC performance by a Chinese fighter, a serious injury, RUFF collapsing, government support disappearing, corruption killing it at the roots … all of the basic stuff that can kill any nascent movement,
But the fighters I saw in Hohhot for the RUFF Superfight are badasses, very serious, and not interested in anything else really. Cept girls i guess 😉 Gave me perspective on how badass GSP must be …
How many tough tough guys went into the UFC and lost 4/5? How many even got 5 chances? I met Tiequan and he is one tough dude. And a nice guy. He carried the hopes of all Chinese MMA fighters and took it to the UFC, he lost. So what man? He put a crack in the wall for others to dig into. I got love for Zhang.
Chinese love brands. How many guys (even girls)you see with NBA merch? Everywhere. They may not even watch B-ball but they know NBA. UFC could be similar, even as a lifestyle brand (just like Tapout?/Afflcition etc. making millions on T-shirts) Love or hate Dana White and his UFC, but those guys know marketing. As he said once when he knocked back lucrative offers from glove makers: “Are you kidding? Everytime you see one of our guys with UFC on the gloves, that’s promotion. Free advertising”. Having said that, the Macao card was pretty half-hearted all round….
Agree with Sasha. Mark Hunt lost 6 straight! But still hanging in there, on a 3 match streak now, fighting on the weekend!
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