Thatcher is Dead

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  • #29745
    Avatar photoAlan
    Participant

    And she gave Honk Kong (a bastion of capitalism) to communists…

    #29746
    Avatar photoIan
    Participant

    I grew up during the Thatcher years and trust me it was bleak and depressing even for children.

    #29748
    Avatar photoRay
    Participant

    Ha ha i was actually the 2nd poster to this thread but i quickly deleted it. I have a personal rule against replying to political threads, but i slipped this time….politics is like a dog chasing it’s tail. Never stops and goes nowhere.

    Poison Idea (great 80’s punk band with the fattest guitarist in the history of music): “Religion and politics killed our friendship” (from the song “Religion and Politics)

    #29750
    Avatar photoBen
    Moderator
    Quote:
    I grew up during the Thatcher years and trust me it was bleak and depressing even for children.

    Good job that you didn’t grow up in the 70s, then you really would be complaining….. 3 day working weeks due to blackouts, 25% peak inflation (13% average), ludicrously inefficient social services, postal strike, miners’ strike, dustmen strike, ITV strike, winter of discontent ….

    Love or hate Thatcher, she was the last leader to actually change things. A marked contrast from those since who have merely continued the status quo while claiming to do otherwise.

    #29754
    Avatar photoWaiguoren
    Participant
    Quote:
    The Thatcher years were some of the most volatile in British history politically and socially.

    I understand that and apologize for being insensitive.

    #29756
    Avatar photoBertalan Farkas
    Participant

    There won’t be too much sympathy for her across the Irish sea either:

    Margaret Thatcher leaves mixed legacy in Ireland

    #29762
    Avatar photoAM
    Participant

    I was young but have vivid memories of anti-poll tax demos and graffiti around the streets of Glasgow. The hatred of her in Scotland was intensified as the poll tax was brought in a year earlier than everywhere else in Britain.

    Before she became Prime Minister, the conservatives held about 1/3 of the Parliamentary seats available in Scotland. This immediately declined and even now they only hold 1 out of the 60 seats. They’ll never recover.

    Scotland has always been a socialist-leaning place but thanks to Maggie the torries will never challenge for anything. They are a distant 4th behind labour, the lib dems and the SNP.

    Posted this song on fb yesterday

    George Square is in Glasgow city centre. A few hundred people turned up yesterday to celebrate her death.

    #29790
    Avatar photooh davey
    Participant

    Bringing the MG thread back from the dead.

    I find it funny that myself as an Irish person am coming to her defence. Perhaps it is because of our perceived collective animosity towards her and also perhaps out of some respect. I don’t love her, don’t agree with a lot of what she has done and I wouldn’t describe her as cuddly. I think there has been too much myth-making concerning Thatcher.

    I understand her being a love / hate figure but I think there are too many people ‘jumping on the bandwagon’ and attributing everything that is wrong to her.

    Everyone has their own memory of Thatcher. I grew up in the 80’s and used to love the Spitting Image satire- Thanks Brendan 😉 I certainly agree with some but not all of your views from that time. But I do respect your views based on your experience, as we all have different experiences and perspectives.

    So, I didn’t grow up in the 70’s but would agree with Ben’s view of the time from my more limited knowledge of the time.

    Quote:
    Good job that you didn’t grow up in the 70s, then you really would be complaining….. 3 day working weeks due to blackouts, 25% peak inflation (13% average), ludicrously inefficient social services, postal strike, miners’ strike, dustmen strike, ITV strike, winter of discontent

    Big quote- Thanks Ben

    Prime ministers are voted in because of the needs of the time. At the time Britain needed a strong leader. It was the informed electorate of that generation who elected such a leader breaking taboos and making new history. Their choice, their responsibility.

    In my (limited) view of the period, previous (and forgettable) leaders bended to trade unions who grew too rapidly and became corrupt and too influential. So, I can understand how the privatisation of state assets was seen as a solution to bloated, self-important & unaffordable public institutions. Besides privatisation was not a new concept, pretty ancient in fact. I don’t agree with it but equally not against it in certain sectors. Like a lot of things, it has it’s merits.

    (side unrelated note: annoyed at privatisation of certain Irish state assets due to debt)

    I believe you have to try to understand the decisions of that time through the context and the chain reaction of events leading to it. And who back then could have foreseen future consequences.

    So today we say privatisation is wrong, but there wouldn’t have been so much sustainable growth during the following period which our generations benefited from. Britain’s position on the world’s stage is perhaps assured through having voted a strong leader for a decade. The special relationship between the UK and US changed the world.

    Now events are happening all around us due to the economic crisis, some mirroring the 80’s with the exception of the Cold War. Bailout countries like Ireland are privatising their state assets due to debt. Unfortunately most of the assets for sale are the wrong ones which most of us know are mistakes for the future.

    Can I blame Thatcher for being the cause? No.

    The deregulation of the banks was again I believe just a chain of events that started in the pre-Thatcher world. Now, it’s seen as wrong in Europe yet America and Britain are advising the EU to end austerity and reduce the regulation to get the economies moving. So, it’s an old debate.

    I definitely wouldn’t be pro-Thatcher despite my defence. There are plenty of people in Ireland who, to put it mildly, have the complete opposite view to mine. But it’s a cynical world and I think we have to be equally cynical about other players at that time and since then.

    As I mentioned in my previous post, she perhaps has done more than many other ‘smiling, friendly’ politicians for Ireland and British relations. I found one article from Ireland from a columnist with a similar view but more knowledge (that is if anyone is interested, this post of mine is rather long and meandering)

    Thatcher did more for Ireland than other UK leaders: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/uk/thatcher-did-more-for-ireland-than-other-uk-leaders-1.1353244%5B/url%5D

    I think that her direct manner, ‘iron’-will and seemingly non-maternal presence (reinforced by ‘Spitting Image’ and like) made her into more of a myth. Myths are easy to love or hate.

    That is Thatcher. Some people have valid reason to disregard her. Love her or hate her at least hate her for the right reasons, not out of prejudice based on pop culture which a certain percentage do. I am sceptical of the praise she was won from Bloomberg etc but you there are notable examples such as from Mikael Gorbachav and other leaders.

    But most of all, have some respect for her. You cannot say she was not a patriot who loved and gave everything to her country. She and her family are now paying the price.

    Sorry for length of post. Anyone who finished, congratulations, I would buy you a pint if I could afford it;)

    Ray & Poison Idea

    Quote:
    “Religion and politics killed our friendship” (from the song “Religion and Politics)

    Agree but is not always the case. Personally I think it is sad if we let politics come in between friendship. I think it is healthy to disagree but respect each others opinion. I hope I don’t offend and am not easily offended.

    But, your quote is true in many cases, and respect that.

    Sorry for any typos etc

    #29825
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator
    Quote:
    I understand that and apologize for being insensitive.

    Oh my goodness no, being insensitive is comedy gold. I have thicker skin than that, I was just pointing out that this was a discussion generally between those who were alive at the time of her reign, or at least genuinely interested now she’s passed.

    Ben I do agree with much of what you say, and I’d go further and say she was perhaps the perfect emodiment of what was needed at the time socially and politically, even if indirectly. On a global stage she absolutely reshaped Great Britain back to being the major player it had previously been historically. Unfortunately much of her rhetoric did not do anything for the common man. Trading floors were awash with patriots I’m sure.

    I feel so nostalgic for the period, her villification really helped crystalise a more open, liberal, and consiciencious thinking amongst the youth of the time. Before political correctness came and doused out the fire, you had an energy with such momentum that it pervaded into all facets of culture. Satire is a great example of how Britain shook off it’s ‘stiff upper lip’, and made it clear to all that you would be held accountable in public for your actions. Unfortunately for most of us that energy didn’t transpire into any deep rooted change for the better upon the landscape. I don’t think rave culture would have had such a big impact had the Conservatives been generating the idealistic standard of living they’d conspired to have us believe they were creating. It just didn’t happen, and so instead week in week out hundreds of thousands of people up and down the country went out and partied hard. Not long after that you had John Major and his stooges introduce the Criminal Justice Act, and sure enough the Conservatives managed to kick the teeth in on the culture, but for a brief moment there we were really flying in the face of an otherwise all too familiar conformity.

    #29888
    Avatar photoLouise Beynon
    Participant

    thatcher would have been voted out in her first relection if it hadnt been for the falklands war and her cynical and masterly seduction of the voters into dreaming of Britain’s past glories and influence in the world.

    Its hard to play ‘what if’ histories. But Thatcher ruled over a time where the poor were taxed to fund the rich, creating a social inequality and disconnect in British society that Blair failed to redress and which continues to blight the UK economy, society and well-being of its citizens. Her legacy of eroding the concept of ‘society’ and communal well-being is a terrible one that no party seems able or willing to address and rectify.

    There is no even-handed way to look at Thatcher. She did a great job of rewriting history by exaggerating the ills of the late 1970s to justify her assault on the unions and state ownership.

    I do think it is reasonable to say that many of the ills of the UK now have their roots in the economic policies and social vision of the Thatcher years.

    #29893
    Avatar photoGary Daniels
    Participant

    I cannot let these myths that have passed into orthodoxy (aided and abetted by the Daily Mail and other Tory rags) that the 1970’s was a disastrous decade for the UK and that Thatcher rescued the British from economic oblivion.

    Let’s deal with a couple of facts about the 1970s:

    Firstly, this was a decade that delivered the greatest period of economic post-war growth (5.3% in Q1 1971 and 4.3% in Q1 1979). Moreover, the highest growth recorded in the whole of the Thatcher terms (from Q2 of 1979 to Q4 1990) was 2.4%. Furthermore, this highest growth was actually lower than the average for the whole of the 1970s.

    Secondly, the 1970’s was the least iniquitous decade in British history. Never before – or since – had wealth between the poorest and the richest been so narrow.

    It therefore seems very strange to me that people can legitimately claim Thatcher presided over an economic miracle. Indeed, using evidence (rather than polemic), the opposite was in fact the case. She decimated many industries and, of course, the skills that went with them. She destroyed a mixed and pluralistic economy into a low-skilled low paid serviced economy. Of course, she also liberalised the financial sector but, as 2008 dramatically demonstrated, to devastating effect. Whole communities (indeed towns and cities – not just in the North) were decimated and have never recovered.

    I do concur with many other posters in this thread that Thatcher was a heartless creature that didn’t give a damn about the consequences of her policies on huge swathes of people in the UK – and for that matter the world. I grew up in 1970s Britain and came of political age in the early 1980s and I am absolutely certain that Britain was and is a worse place for Thatcher – not better. She shunned social democracy, equality and, for that matter, liberty too. While she certainly ‘rolled back the state’ for the rich and private capital, she was also very keen to role forward the state when it came to the liberties of ordinary people. There were more legislative acts curtailing the freedoms of association in the 1980s than at any other point in UK parliamentary history.

    In terms of social politics, she was a complete reactionary. She was an ardent supporter of South Africa’s apartheid system (as were many Tories of that period who regarded Nelson Mandela and the ANC as terrorists). She had a real hangup on lesbians and gay, famously pushing through a highly discriminatory piece of legislation (section 28) that outlawed the so-called ‘promotion’ of same-sex relationships.

    While I could go on forever about how wrong and divisive Thatcher was, I don’t think it will be appropriate Internet etiquette. However, for those interested in continuing these discussions away from a forum there will be two gatherings at the Underground Bar over the next few days. On Saturday night, there will be a party (for celebration or commiseration depending of your perspective) and on Wednesday night we will be showing the funeral live. On both occasions there will be plenty of opportunity to vent your views, whatever they might be (in a cordial manner of course).

    Best wishes,

    Gary

    #29902
    Avatar photooh davey
    Participant

    Oh, I’m going to be in trouble for this.

    I really think many of you have genuine reasons for disliking her, but hating her- I don’t know.

    You seem to forget that the majority of your society voted her in (11 years), and in far greater numbers than present years.

    http://www.ukpolitical.info/Turnout45.htm

    I personally think it is to a great extent a witch-hunt. An excuse for some to engage in self-pity and others to protest. I think it is quite sad that at the passing of person, albeit a leader, so much animosity is on display and for the world to see (for those who are interested). I honestly think many just have no idea why.

    As I said, think there is quite a bit of self-pitying going on in Britain at the moment. Of course everyone is looking back to the Thatcherite times, but in a few years from now (and perhaps some presently) sociologists will be jumping up and down for joy for all the material provided by the public and political reaction of the passing of my old pal, Mags.

    Over 11 years there is plenty of ammunition for the shoe-throwers who put her there. Talk about disparity between the classes. Most of Britain now are middle-class but identify themselves like the majority of Irish people as working class heroes. There was always a huge disparity between classes, the landed gentry, many of yours that we had as landowners and still have in Ireland and the UK. We still pay rent to a British landowner for our famous landmark building, the GPO located on Dublin’s main street, O’Connell street.

    Sure, in the 80’s, many became rich, but many just as equally felt that they were entitled to be rich and felt bitter when they didn’t see themselves catch up others who grew in wealth. Sure, some taxes are unfair. It’s an injust society. If people care so much, maybe they should run for election or contribute in some positive way instead of whining.

    In my own country we have plenty of examples of self-pity, from the gloom from the banking crisis in Ireland and from the time Thierry Henry scored a goal against Ireland for France.

    During the banking crisis, many us blamed everyone but ourselves. At the end of the day we have our own responsibility and share some of the blame for the crisis.

    Now, my old friend, Mags is being vilified. I think it is much easier to attack others than defend. There is a certain truth that is being lost and not enough introspection as a people.

    I sincerely hope that after the circus around her funeral that a lot of people gain back some pride for being British.

    And I hope, if I start wallowing in pity you will be kind enough to tell me.

    Also, despite some of my strong language above, I consider myself to be quite a moderate. I am not seeking to offend, Ireland I think is so closely intertwined with the UK culturally and historically and I have a great deal of respect for all aspects of GB.

    #30025
    Avatar photoAlan
    Participant

    Thatcher.png

    #29935
    Avatar photoAlan
    Participant

    Thatcher.png

    #30006
    Avatar photoIan
    Participant

    Davey you are talking out of your arse

    Quote:
    Most of Britain now are middle-class but identify themselves like the majority of Irish people as working class heroes.

    Where do you get this stat from?

    Quote:
    Sure, in the 80’s, many became rich, but many just as equally felt that they were entitled to be rich and felt bitter when they didn’t see themselves catch up others who grew in wealth.

    The few became rich.

    Quote:
    I sincerely hope that after the circus around her funeral that a lot of people gain back some pride for being British.

    George-Carlin-Quote-On-ethnic-and-national-pride.jpg

    #30096
    Avatar photoIan
    Participant

    Davey you are talking out of your arse

    Quote:
    Most of Britain now are middle-class but identify themselves like the majority of Irish people as working class heroes.

    Where do you get this stat from?

    Quote:
    Sure, in the 80’s, many became rich, but many just as equally felt that they were entitled to be rich and felt bitter when they didn’t see themselves catch up others who grew in wealth.

    The few became rich.

    Quote:
    I sincerely hope that after the circus around her funeral that a lot of people gain back some pride for being British.

    George-Carlin-Quote-On-ethnic-and-national-pride.jpg

    #30014
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator

    Ha Ha! I’m glad you posted this Ian, I’d thought back to this very Carlin piece when ‘pride’ was mentioned in reference to nationality. Whenever I’m asked if I am ‘proud to be British’, I have no easy answer to give. These are old and outdated modes of thought, and to be honest anytime I see anyone waving a Union Jack it makes me either uncomfortable, or bemused. Further, citing pride in relation to Thatcher… We are talking about the person who more than any other in British history helped erode that sense of pride as she helped reinforce the consumerist culture that was funneling the nations wealth upward.

    #30104
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator

    Ha Ha! I’m glad you posted this Ian, I’d thought back to this very Carlin piece when ‘pride’ was mentioned in reference to nationality. Whenever I’m asked if I am ‘proud to be British’, I have no easy answer to give. These are old and outdated modes of thought, and to be honest anytime I see anyone waving a Union Jack it makes me either uncomfortable, or bemused. Further, citing pride in relation to Thatcher… We are talking about the person who more than any other in British history helped erode that sense of pride as she helped reinforce the consumerist culture that was funneling the nations wealth upward.

    #30168
    Avatar photooh davey
    Participant

    Tomorrow, I will be collecting for Conservative Future (CF) formally known as Conservative Youth at the Underground tomorrow.

    We need your support!

    #30179
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator
    Quote:
    Tomorrow, I will be collecting for Conservative Future (CF) formally known as Conservative Youth at the Underground tomorrow.

    Wait… What!? It all makes sense now, you’re a bonafide blue blood.

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