Uber Banned in China?

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  • #46229
    Avatar photoMiro630
    Participant

    My motivation is not primarily what kind of risk it involves. I am quite aware that the risk for the passenger using Uber is either very minor or even non existent.

    I also do not want to say that I am such a ‘exemplary’ visitor as I also from time to time cross the road on the red light when there are no cars coming … (also illegal activity which in this case could – or even should – be punished).

    What I just wanted to say that in case there is a legal option which is from my perspective quite comparable so I see no reason to go for the first mentioned one.

    However I am not judging the people who have different opinion. I am convinced that everybody has the free choice and I have no trouble with that as long as it does not limits/harms the other ones.

    I just expressed my opinion that China, and especially its municipalities, will have quite a problem with their taxi system. There may be tens thousands of Uber drivers but there are also tens thousands of taxi drivers who clearly are going to feel the consequences of increased Uber popularity.

    On top of that it will clearly effectively disrupt any eventual city transport plan.

    Therefore I assume that Uber may not have a big chance to survive in China unless they get under the government control (whatever that means).

    But I admit I can be wrong …

    #46230
    Avatar photoBen
    Moderator

    I am not using Uber primarily because I usually do not want to break the law of the country where I am located.

    Uber is not illegal. If it was that simple then China would shut it down and block the app.

    Drivers of private cars offering taxi services through ride hailing apps is illegal. I believe both 一号专车 and Uber currently both allow this.

    #46231
    Avatar photoMiro630
    Participant

    China’s Ministry of Transport announced on Jan 8 that every (cab-hailing) app company should abide by transport market rules, take their responsibilities seriously, and ban private cars from operating on their platform, even though the ministrysaw a “positive role” for apps that work with licensed operatorsin serving the differentiated transportation market

    As Uber is generally based on using private car drivers so it’s bypassing the law of the country which allows only licensed providers to operate in passenger transport.

    I agree that the situation with 一号专车 is basically identical (for their lower end offers/cars) and one of the explanation why the Chinese clone of Uber is not under crackdown (may be it’s better to say under crackdown yet …) can be that the company can be more willing to search the consensus with the government (一号专车 is Alibaba’s daughter company).

    #46233
    Avatar photoCharlie
    Keymaster

    I agree that the situation with 一号专车 is basically identical (for their lower end offers/cars) and one of the explanation why the Chinese clone of Uber is not under crackdown (may be it’s better to say under crackdown yet …) can be that the company can be more willing to search the consensus with the government (一号专车 is Alibaba’s daughter company).

    It’s a Chinese clone of a popular Western product: those are exactly the kind of products that dominate China’s software landscape. However, for now, Uber is in the pole position among ride-sharing apps in China.

    #46235
    Avatar photoBen
    Moderator

    Apparently there was another taxi driver strike against uber in Chengdu on Sunday:

    http://www.carnewschina.com/2015/05/11/chinese-taxi-drivers-on-strike-against-uber/

    #46237
    Avatar photoCharlie
    Keymaster

    Apparently there was another taxi driver strike against uber in Chengdu on Sunday:

    http://www.carnewschina.com/2015/05/11/chinese-taxi-drivers-on-strike-against-uber/

    The strike was triggered by an incident in the night from Saturday on Sunday, when police revoked the license of a taxi driver who was apparently pretending to be an Uber driver, tapping into the Uber app and picking up passengers. This led to an immediate sit-in protest at the Uber office involving hundreds of taxi driver, and the next morning to the strike.

    So they’re protesting Uber because one of their own (a taxi driver) pretended to be an Uber driver and had his license revoked? Sounds like this is 100% the drivers fault and has little to do with Uber.

    #46239
    Avatar photosquirrel suit
    Participant

    Wouldn’t traditional Chinese culture say that Uber should be allowed? Daoism and the “Invisible Hand” (or was that Adam Smith?) would say it should be allowed, not allowing the government to interfere with the economy, right?

    From that thread:

    Because Taoists firmly believe that people should live as naturally as they can, to live , to love  , to accept who they are than force themselves to change. which also means, the main duty of a government is to help people achieve this state. not to interfere anything, economy or whatsoever because the economy itself will go well whithout any help fro the outside world.

    /pot stirred

    #46242
    Avatar photoMiro630
    Participant

    Firstly I would say that the quoted description of Taoism is very simplified and therefore necessarily a bit misleading.

    Even though Taoism pretty much advocates for something what could be nowadays called liberalism so Lao Zi clearly addresses the problems of leadership.

    Some arguments are in the direction that Taoist see the state not as artificial structure but rather the natural one and therefore in compliance with natural principles.

    But this all has little sense in reference to the topic of Uber because Taoism is certainly not predominant religion in current China … 🙂

    From my personal perspective Uber has one crucial problem – it does not fit the system. The system shall be either completely liberalized with all the pro’s and con’s or strictly controlled (with full responsibility of controlling authority for the outcome). Everything what is somewhere between of these two approaches cannot but to disrupt the system as a whole. Therefore also all governments around the world are fighting Uber.

    My approach would be more liberal but I am aware of the fact it would most probably mean that taxis in China would become luxury product – a bit similar to taxi service in Japan or UK.

    #46246
    Avatar photoCharlie
    Keymaster

    Therefore also all governments around the world are fighting Uber.

    That is definitely not true, but even if it were, I don’t think it would bother Uber too much. Here’s a good article about that: Resistance is Futile: Uber Loves a Good Fight. According to Uber they are operating in 57 countries, 20 of which they have faced resistance in. One of those countries is China, where they face opposition but are still in business and used by thousands of people daily.

    Another one is Germany, where Uber was banned, but is now allowed again, with the caveat that you can only use Uber to hail taxis or Uber Black cars. The point is that in most of the 20 countries which Uber has faced governmental opposition, it has worked out a deal to remain in business in that country. It appears that they are quite savvy at dealing with governments who oppose them, I think this recent event in Chengdu of being raided by local government testifies to that. They get raided in a highly-discussed event yet they remain in business without any apparent restrictions, for now. That is impressive.

    #46248
    Avatar photoMiro630
    Participant

    I also do not have the ambition to let Uber care about my opinion …

    But it still does not change the facts based on which I came to my opinion.

    In the world frequently there are anomalies existent – but they rarely can last too long unless the system is changed.

    And especially in the country with relatively strong state control I think the chance to succeed against the state will is not big.

    But who knows – may be Uber may find the way how to make a piece with China – Google failed but Microsoft succeeded (both being US companies). And if this happens then Uber will be already part of regulated system with little to none ‘liberal signs’ as it has them now.

    #46250
    Avatar photoBen
    Moderator

    I agree that the situation with 一号专车 is basically identical (for their lower end offers/cars)

    Uber offer uber black in China which uses legally licenced drivers. These 2 services are completely identical.

    #46255
    Avatar photoJohnny5
    Participant

    I also do not have the ambition to let Uber care about my opinion … But it still does not change the facts based on which I came to my opinion.

    I have been reading this forum and I just can’t help but think this is the exact same argument that horse drawn carriage makers had when the automobile came about. Honestly, how can you so vehemently defend a losing argument. Are you so anti innovation that you can’t imagine a world without hail-able cabs? Do you think cab drivers like what they do? They drive 12 hours a day and many for less than 6000 RMB a month. I was talking to my Uber black driver today. I took Uber black because I had a large delivery to a wedding today and I needed a large, clean car with A/C that would be okay with helping me with the delivery. Should I have ordered a van? Well that would have been illegal given the fact that they aren’t licensed transport vehicles either. My order wouldn’t fit in a cab so my hands were tied and instead of riding the 1 hour trip with my donuts melting in the back of a hot, dusty fruit wagon I rode in a Mercedes GLK SUV. He had his child seat strapped in because he has a full time job and just does this on his day off for a few extra bucks to meet people. However my driver has a friend who got 3 phones, signed up for 一号专车, 滴滴打车 and Uber from what my driver said he made over 60k last month driving the same 12 hours a day.

    Do you want to talk about a moral opposition to doing illegal things? It is against the law in Chengdu to have a restaurant in a residential building. Ignorance of that law does not give you justification to break it. Are you now going to immediately stop going to your local noodle spot because you don’t want to be an accomplice or an accessory to their illegal business? I mean, it’s not your fault or anything but you don’t want to be there when every one gets shut down. Don’t go to the BBQ on the corner either, that is against the law too.

    You know what I love the very most about China? They would rather have someone “illegally” selling fruit from a basket to feed their family than having the same person leaching from state welfare. They don’t actively try to stifle entrepreneurship because it is bad for the broader social good.

    I sincerely doubt you could find a single city where ride sharing/hailing services have had a huge negative impact on the taxi business. You might want to pick up the yellow pages and find someone to get that information for you, or at least don’t use Google or Baidu to source it. They are both deeply invested in Uber and you wouldn’t want to support the enemy.

    There will come a time when these types of things are part of our social DNA and the fight against it, just like the fight against automation, or scientific research, or AI is a complete waste of time. The fact is, one day you will be breathing with a lung grown from your own stem cells, while ordering McDonalds made by robots, delivered by a self driving car owned by Uber.

    Here’s to the future.

    #46266
    Avatar photoCharlie
    Keymaster

    There will come a time when these types of things are part of our social DNA and the fight against it, just like the fight against automation, or scientific research, or AI is a complete waste of time. The fact is, one day you will be breathing with a lung grown from your own stem cells, while ordering McDonalds made by robots, delivered by a self driving car owned by Uber.

    Here’s to the future.

    Yes, I believe you are right, and that that future is much closer than most of us can imagine. Uber’s CEO has already said that Uber will one day replace all Uber drivers with self-driving cars. Columbia University did a study where they concluded that with 9,000 self-driving cars, Uber could replace every taxi in NYC and bring the cost down to $0.50 per mile with an average wait time of 36 seconds. For Uber to replace every taxi in the United States would take 171,000 autonomous cars, which at $25k USD each would cost around $4.3 billion. Uber is currently worth in the neighborhood of $40 billion. Note that this transition to autonomous cars would bring the cost of the Uber service way, way down and make it more economical than automobile ownership for residents in dozens of major cities across the US.

    The average car is used about 4% of the time by its driver. The other 96% of the time it’s parked. Switching to autonomous cars in the US alone is estimated to eventually reduce the number of automobiles in America from 245 million down to around 2.4 million. Most major automobile manufacturers (General Motors, Ford, Toyota) will not survive the transition and will be out of business within 25 years. This will bring something like 10 million people out of the automotive industry – not just taxi drivers, but bus/truck/delivery drivers, auto mechanics, dealers, people who work in parts and manufacturing, etc. It’s estimated to open about something like $1 trillion in additional disposable income.

    Taxis as we currently have them will be a thing of the past very soon. We can already see Uber causing massive disruption all over the globe, and this is surely only the beginning.

    And Johnny: your point about drivers making much more money, and more importantly, having a strong sense of purpose, is absolutely true. Here’s an article about that: Uber’s remarkable growth could end the era of poorly paid taxi drivers

    There are two sides to this Uber controversy:

    1. Governments (and their poorly-paid subjects) who wants to maintain their profitable status quo with an antiquated and obsolete business model
    2. Uber, the people’s champion, who has thousands of passionate drivers and passengers behind it, all across the world, which delivers a service that people love and is changing the world

    #46271
    Avatar photoBen
    Moderator

    And Johnny: your point about drivers making much more money, and more importantly, having a strong sense of purpose, is absolutely true.

    I have no idea how much uber drivers are making in China, but I don’t believe it is approaching anywhere near 60k. There have been protests in both San Francisco and New York over pay. Some drivers are saying that they are earning less than minimum wage.

    http://nypost.com/2014/10/22/uber-drivers-in-new-york-strike-to-protest-lower-pay/

    http://time.com/92988/uberx-san-francisco-protest-uber/

    http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/05/theres-no-way-most-uberx-drivers-make-twice-what-traditional-cabbies-do/371669/

    Most major automobile manufacturers (General Motors, Ford, Toyota) will not survive the transition and will be out of business within 25 years.

    Driverless cars and ride sharing apps are the future. I’m just not sure that they can ever replace private car ownership. I view them more as a replacement for taxis or city public transport.

    #46272
    Avatar photoJohnny5
    Participant

    I have no idea how much uber drivers are making in China, but I don’t believe it is approaching anywhere near 60k. There have been protests in both San Francisco and New York over pay. Some drivers are saying that they are earning less than minimum wage.

    This video pretty much sums up the future that Charlie and I are painting. (Charlie forgive me if I am wrong) But I don’t know if you fully understand the impact that automation will make on society. At the very least our children will see a future where they will live pretty much forever and have nothing to do. I don’t have a ton of time to explain all of this but watching the video may help you understand what we are talking about. If you honestly think self driving cars and ride sharing won’t replace private ownership for the majority of people you should get back in your carriage and whip your horse home.

    And for those of you who are morally opposed to YouTube because china has banned the service, here is a YouKu link just for you: youku video

    #46273
    Avatar photoCharlie
    Keymaster

    I have no idea how much uber drivers are making in China, but I don’t believe it is approaching anywhere near 60k. There have been protests in both San Francisco and New York over pay. Some drivers are saying that they are earning less than minimum wage.

    It’s impractical to generalize about how much Uber drivers make because there are so many factors. Some Uber drivers pick up 3 passengers a week, other pick up 200. Some drive Uber-X with a Prius, others drive Uber Black with a Mercedes. Some drive for Uber full-time, most do not. Some drive in NYC, others drive in rural Georgia.

    Uber drivers are independent contractors: things like minimum wage, overtime, health insurance etc do not apply to them (there is currently litigation over this, likely on behalf of the protestors that you linked to).

    #46274
    Avatar photoBen
    Moderator

    It’s impractical to generalize about how much Uber drivers make because there are so many factors.

    That was my point exactly. You can’t say that uber drivers make more money than taxi drivers as they are different models. Most drivers are not driving full time, and the ones that are see mixed results from what I have read.

    #46275
    Avatar photoJohnny5
    Participant

    I uploaded the wrong video, sorry about that

    #46276
    Avatar photoBen
    Moderator

    you honestly think self driving cars and ride sharing won’t replace private ownership for the majority of people you should get back in your carriage and whip your horse home.

    For numerous reasons people aspire to owning private cars. Nowhere is that more clear than in China. For many it is a status symbol, others love driving, some like having a toy to modify and play with. You can see just how private cars are ingrained in our culture by looking at the volume of websites, magazines and tv shows that review and discuss them. Children grow up with pictures of super cars on their walls. Teenagers yearn for the day they can pass their driving test and buy their first car. It’s not just the freedom to go anywhere that it brings, it’s also the feeling of skilfully controlling something so powerful, having something valuable of your own to personalise and show off. We human beings love our possessions. Will the private car culture eventually be replaced by something else? Maybe, but it will be a very slow change that I don’t believe I will see complete in my lifetime.

    #46279
    Avatar photoCharlie
    Keymaster

    That was my point exactly. You can’t say that uber drivers make more money than taxi drivers as they are different models. Most drivers are not driving full time, and the ones that are see mixed results from what I have read.

    There are many, many stories of Uber drivers making a boatload of cash. I mean far more than the national average income, 4x what taxi drivers make in the same city, working the same hours, driving the same streets: Some Uber-X Drivers Make More Than the Average Tech Worker.

    I have never heard of a taxi driver making a lot of money. It’s taxi companies that make a lot of money, taking a majority of profit earned by drivers while simultaneously charging the same drivers for the gas and car they use to earn.

    But speaking about just Chengdu, here’s what your average taxi driver looks like (my anecdotal evidence, ten years in Chengdu and thousands of taxi trips):

    • Uneducated, often missing front teeth, often not even able to speak Mandarin, only Sichuanhua
    • Frequently smoking, yelling, honking at everything on the road, running red lights. Often curse people out, driving recklessly, and chain smoking all day long and experiencing zero repercussions.
    • Bitter about being stuck in traffic all, carting people around all day only to earn huge profits for a taxi company that he/she doesn’t care about

    And Uber drivers, by comparison (my anecdotal evidence collected from 100+ Uber trips in Chengdu):

    • Mostly college educated, which you can immediately tell by speaking a few sentences with them (college educated people in Chengdu act and speak noticeably different, I find)
    • Kind, respectful, good natured, and even friendly to their passenger and their car. Violation of this means they won’t be driving Uber for long (Uber in Chengdu requires a 4.7 star rating of its drivers).
    • Most commonly driving Uber part time, working another job part time

    A ton of Uber drivers in Chengdu are ex-taxi drivers. They get a car, quit, and often make 4x as much money while working for themselves while making new friends at the same time.

    Will the private car culture eventually be replaced by something else? Maybe, but it will be a very slow change that I don’t believe I will see complete in my lifetime.

    Eventually it will be illegal to drive a car on the road purely because of safety reasons. In California you not only cannot smoke cigarettes inside restaurants or bars, but you can’t even smoke in a car that has a child in it. Some people are grumpy about it, but it is for the greater good. Eliminating the 40,000 people who are killed every year in the US due to human error on public roads is also for the greater good.

    Before we get to that point, the number of people who own cars will be gradually reduced, year by year, until it’s a very small number of specialized use cases.

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