US & China: Destined to Clash?

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  • #17657
    Avatar photoCharlie
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    @Brendan

    Some very good points. The one I was going to mention first and foremost was the “complex” nonsense. I always hear the “it is complicated” blanket to avoid any real depth in root cause analysis or answering with any semblance of directness.

    Me too, many times. Or China’s high population, which is another common thing brought up when discussing domestic issues.

    #17482
    Avatar photoChris Ziich
    Moderator

    linka’s subtle implications for why she’s not saying more should have been obvious, despite the fact that there shouldn’t be any real danger here. Though you never know, Big Brother is watching…

    #17658
    Avatar photoChris Ziich
    Moderator

    linka’s subtle implications for why she’s not saying more should have been obvious, despite the fact that there shouldn’t be any real danger here. Though you never know, Big Brother is watching…

    #17483
    Avatar photoRick in China
    Participant

    *YAWN*

    That’s a ridiculous excuse to avoid opening one’s mind, nothing more.

    1) I don’t think anything talked about was really “anti-CPC” to the extent you’re making it. It’s a discussion about ideologies and perceptions, nothing more.

    2) There is NO WORRIES about speaking out on the internet in China, for foreigners or Chinese – *Unless* you’re creating movements that gather up masses and rile them up in an anti-government fashion *nobody gives a shit*. The government deletes posts or whatever, but ‘speaking your mind’ on the internet in China doesn’t mean anything – except for the risk of potentially getting a site blocked for a short period of time or a post or something removed. SAYING “I DON’T LIKE WHAT MY GOV’T IS DOING AND WANT THEM TO FUCK OFF” does NOT turn you into AI WEIWEI!

    3) When I first came to China, I was also on the ‘ignorant’ boat of “oh my I better not mention tian an men in this chaofan restaurant or I’ll be deported, there are secret mic’s everywhere!” – but have since came to the conclusion that the whole idea of all this data being captured monitored filtered and followed up on is a fucking joke. Seriously. Do you have any idea how much work that would be – it is absolutely not feasible. I do data warehousing and data integration in very, very large scales. Let me put it this way: China has massive data warehouses. China has piss-poor data integration. Chinese government has shitty outdated data management systems in every facet of their operations. If you think they’re capturing all your msn chats and filtering it out, try it – start ranting to a friend in unencrypted MSN about how you’d like to (insert something very derrogatory and threatening here), and see how much more freedom you feel behind the great firewall when you realize nothing will happen as a result. 😀

    #17659
    Avatar photoRick in China
    Participant

    *YAWN*

    That’s a ridiculous excuse to avoid opening one’s mind, nothing more.

    1) I don’t think anything talked about was really “anti-CPC” to the extent you’re making it. It’s a discussion about ideologies and perceptions, nothing more.

    2) There is NO WORRIES about speaking out on the internet in China, for foreigners or Chinese – *Unless* you’re creating movements that gather up masses and rile them up in an anti-government fashion *nobody gives a shit*. The government deletes posts or whatever, but ‘speaking your mind’ on the internet in China doesn’t mean anything – except for the risk of potentially getting a site blocked for a short period of time or a post or something removed. SAYING “I DON’T LIKE WHAT MY GOV’T IS DOING AND WANT THEM TO FUCK OFF” does NOT turn you into AI WEIWEI!

    3) When I first came to China, I was also on the ‘ignorant’ boat of “oh my I better not mention tian an men in this chaofan restaurant or I’ll be deported, there are secret mic’s everywhere!” – but have since came to the conclusion that the whole idea of all this data being captured monitored filtered and followed up on is a fucking joke. Seriously. Do you have any idea how much work that would be – it is absolutely not feasible. I do data warehousing and data integration in very, very large scales. Let me put it this way: China has massive data warehouses. China has piss-poor data integration. Chinese government has shitty outdated data management systems in every facet of their operations. If you think they’re capturing all your msn chats and filtering it out, try it – start ranting to a friend in unencrypted MSN about how you’d like to (insert something very derrogatory and threatening here), and see how much more freedom you feel behind the great firewall when you realize nothing will happen as a result. 😀

    #17485
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator
    Quote:
    linka’s subtle implications for why she’s not saying more should have been obvious

    It’s more than obvious, and also conveniently evades any engagement. This being a forum, anyone can give opinion (anonymously), and add to the perspective of what’s being discussed. Asking questions in rhetoric, then absenting response is at cross purposes.

    That is all. 😀

    #17660
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator
    Quote:
    linka’s subtle implications for why she’s not saying more should have been obvious

    It’s more than obvious, and also conveniently evades any engagement. This being a forum, anyone can give opinion (anonymously), and add to the perspective of what’s being discussed. Asking questions in rhetoric, then absenting response is at cross purposes.

    That is all. 😀

    #17486
    Avatar photoRichard Webb
    Member

    Brendan and Rick,

    I understand both of your view points. However, we also have to accept we are not the ones who live in fear. We understand we can speak our minds and have opinions. Again, people have those too in China but are unwilling to air them in public.

    As we may not be aware that even for a national in this country to have an opinion may come at a cost we the visitors do not understand as an earlier post pointed out this mind set has been ingrained over the past 60 years.

    If someone is unwilling to enter further into a discussion that is their choice and they are free to exercise such a choice. whilst, goading a person into making a response may result in untold consequences for that person should they respond.

    We from the West have a luxury called freedom so to speak. however, our freedom is relative to our country of origin. at this point you should have realised that those in china of chinese origin have their own relative freedom in relation to their country.

    bottomline: all freedom is relative to the country of your origin and people who come from different countries should not demand others to exercise what they see as “freedom” on others.

    😀

    #17661
    Avatar photoRichard Webb
    Member

    Brendan and Rick,

    I understand both of your view points. However, we also have to accept we are not the ones who live in fear. We understand we can speak our minds and have opinions. Again, people have those too in China but are unwilling to air them in public.

    As we may not be aware that even for a national in this country to have an opinion may come at a cost we the visitors do not understand as an earlier post pointed out this mind set has been ingrained over the past 60 years.

    If someone is unwilling to enter further into a discussion that is their choice and they are free to exercise such a choice. whilst, goading a person into making a response may result in untold consequences for that person should they respond.

    We from the West have a luxury called freedom so to speak. however, our freedom is relative to our country of origin. at this point you should have realised that those in china of chinese origin have their own relative freedom in relation to their country.

    bottomline: all freedom is relative to the country of your origin and people who come from different countries should not demand others to exercise what they see as “freedom” on others.

    😀

    #17488
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator
    Quote:
    I understand both of your view points. However, we also have to accept we are not the ones who live in fear. We understand we can speak our minds and have opinions. Again, people have those too in China but are unwilling to air them in public.

    Without getting into the finer points of whether or not posting opinion or view on a forum is going to be shortly followed by midnight abduction (which supposes the context of any opinion anyway), I’ll confess that I made my initial response to deliberately draw this kind of discussion in this thread.

    The thread asks for opinion on the supposed future ‘clash’ between the U.S. & China, which is naturally and inevitably a political question that’s already been debated in both countries for decades.

    Apart from it being natural to engage anyone posting in the thread by responding, I don’t see any coercion beyond asking for opinion. The ‘opinion’ given in return needn’t be damning or inflammatory by default, that remains the choice of any individual posting. Further, if we’re not engaging Chinese born citizens in the forum, we’re missing out on an opportunity to gain new perspectives, then debate them if we feel so inclined.

    Geographical freedoms aside, perceived or otherwise, we should be encouraging debate wherever it is possible. To be flippant, dismissive, or state the obvious, is to be short of depth or substance. A perfect recipe for status quo (I’m trying not to be too subtle there). 😀

    #17662
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator
    Quote:
    I understand both of your view points. However, we also have to accept we are not the ones who live in fear. We understand we can speak our minds and have opinions. Again, people have those too in China but are unwilling to air them in public.

    Without getting into the finer points of whether or not posting opinion or view on a forum is going to be shortly followed by midnight abduction (which supposes the context of any opinion anyway), I’ll confess that I made my initial response to deliberately draw this kind of discussion in this thread.

    The thread asks for opinion on the supposed future ‘clash’ between the U.S. & China, which is naturally and inevitably a political question that’s already been debated in both countries for decades.

    Apart from it being natural to engage anyone posting in the thread by responding, I don’t see any coercion beyond asking for opinion. The ‘opinion’ given in return needn’t be damning or inflammatory by default, that remains the choice of any individual posting. Further, if we’re not engaging Chinese born citizens in the forum, we’re missing out on an opportunity to gain new perspectives, then debate them if we feel so inclined.

    Geographical freedoms aside, perceived or otherwise, we should be encouraging debate wherever it is possible. To be flippant, dismissive, or state the obvious, is to be short of depth or substance. A perfect recipe for status quo (I’m trying not to be too subtle there). 😀

    #17489
    Avatar photoRichard Webb
    Member
    Quote:
    Apart from it being natural to engage anyone posting in the thread by responding, I don’t see any coercion beyond asking for opinion. The ‘opinion’ given in return needn’t be damning or inflammatory by default, that remains the choice of any individual posting. Further, if we’re not engaging Chinese born citizens in the forum, we’re missing out on an opportunity to gain new perspectives, then debate them if we feel so inclined.

    Geographical freedoms aside, perceived or otherwise, we should be encouraging debate wherever it is possible. To be flippant, dismissive, or state the obvious, is to be short of depth or substance. A perfect recipe for status quo (I’m trying not to be too subtle there). 😀

    regardless of what you want to initiate the right of a person not to give a full explanation of their stance is their right. For whatever reason.

    To then goad the person is just ignorant to the other persons “right of choice”

    For a debate we all have to understand the boundaries in place whether visible or not. People live in fear “fact” and we have to respect that some people do not have the freedom of the west.

    To be cautious of your actions whether physical or in word format shows shows a certain amount of fear.

    This is an open forum and therefore readable by everyone and in some peoples eyes that makes them over-cautious. if you want a true debate with no restrictions then in private where the words cannot be read by those who could cause a poster problems (not that any post would cause a problem) would be the obvious route.

    what you have to accept is people will not post the full meanings of their stance and you can like or not, geographical freedoms are paramount to the native chinese on a forum such as this.

    To conclude: I doubt any clash between China and America there is too much to lose on both sides.

    #17663
    Avatar photoRichard Webb
    Member
    Quote:
    Apart from it being natural to engage anyone posting in the thread by responding, I don’t see any coercion beyond asking for opinion. The ‘opinion’ given in return needn’t be damning or inflammatory by default, that remains the choice of any individual posting. Further, if we’re not engaging Chinese born citizens in the forum, we’re missing out on an opportunity to gain new perspectives, then debate them if we feel so inclined.

    Geographical freedoms aside, perceived or otherwise, we should be encouraging debate wherever it is possible. To be flippant, dismissive, or state the obvious, is to be short of depth or substance. A perfect recipe for status quo (I’m trying not to be too subtle there). 😀

    regardless of what you want to initiate the right of a person not to give a full explanation of their stance is their right. For whatever reason.

    To then goad the person is just ignorant to the other persons “right of choice”

    For a debate we all have to understand the boundaries in place whether visible or not. People live in fear “fact” and we have to respect that some people do not have the freedom of the west.

    To be cautious of your actions whether physical or in word format shows shows a certain amount of fear.

    This is an open forum and therefore readable by everyone and in some peoples eyes that makes them over-cautious. if you want a true debate with no restrictions then in private where the words cannot be read by those who could cause a poster problems (not that any post would cause a problem) would be the obvious route.

    what you have to accept is people will not post the full meanings of their stance and you can like or not, geographical freedoms are paramount to the native chinese on a forum such as this.

    To conclude: I doubt any clash between China and America there is too much to lose on both sides.

    #17664
    Avatar photoMike’s Pizza
    Participant

    1. America and China are already constantly clashing, they just do it through proxies as in the Cold War. Iran is an abstract example, a more concrete example is the Spratly Islands Dispute, where every time China pushes a little more, one of the other claimants (Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines) will “invite” the US military to visit their Spratly holdings. As China’s need for resources increases, as well as their strength in relation to other superpowers, they are bound to push a little more. The US is aware of this, which is why they are stationing marines in Australia, announcing plans for a new long range stealth bomber, and increasing general readiness in the Asia-Pacific region.

    2. China and the US still share a symbiotic relationship. Both countries are very well aware of how much they need each other. American corporations need the labor, the American government needs the loans, (Ironic that the loan money finances a military-industrial complex that sees the source nation as a threat) and as China emerges as a strong consumer nation the US needs a place to sell their shit. Posturing aside, there are lines that both countries will not cross.

    3.

    Quote:
    Most of us thought that China would change politically as its economy grew and it was embraced by the rest of the world in meaningful ways like hosting the Olympics. But instead of opening up, it has been closing up.

    If by “opening up” you mean things like Democracy and Human Rights, that is a flawed assumption the outset. Democracy is not inherently good, indeed it has a large number of disadvantages which you noted above, and the US has long since lost their moral legitimacy in regards to human rights questions.

    Obama: Mr. President, the United States is very concerned about your human rights record.

    Hu: I’m sorry, Mr. President, my translator must be broken, the only thing I heard was, ‘Guantanamo, Abu Graib, Waterboarding, civilian casualties from bombing and drone strikes…”

    On that note, if a so-called “Democracy” like the United States can still perpetrate unjust wars based on false claims against sovereign states, then maybe that is the system of government that needs to be changed.

    4.

    Quote:
    China has been bombarded with propaganda that the United States is a bad guy for decades, and the average American also approaches the abstract notion of “China” with caution.

    This is a HUGE problem on both sides. All of us who live here have to deal with various degrees of dispute rooted in racism and nationalism, and it is just as bad in the US. My little brother went through basic training last year, and the drill sergeant was constantly saying things like, “If we go to war with China there are 1000 of them for every one of you, so you better learn to shoot fast and hit what you’re aiming at.” On one level, the rhetoric is just basic racists and idiots, but when that rhetoric comes from members of both governments it makes me think that both sides are fanning the flames of xenophobia for their own purposes and it saddens me that people can’t see through that. Still, I would even submit that this is part of the complex symbiotic relationship shared by the two superpowers. Hatred and Fear of Russia got the US to the moon, if the hatred is great enough on both sides who knows what could be accomplished.

    #17490
    Avatar photoMike’s Pizza
    Participant

    1. America and China are already constantly clashing, they just do it through proxies as in the Cold War. Iran is an abstract example, a more concrete example is the Spratly Islands Dispute, where every time China pushes a little more, one of the other claimants (Vietnam, Malaysia, Philippines) will “invite” the US military to visit their Spratly holdings. As China’s need for resources increases, as well as their strength in relation to other superpowers, they are bound to push a little more. The US is aware of this, which is why they are stationing marines in Australia, announcing plans for a new long range stealth bomber, and increasing general readiness in the Asia-Pacific region.

    2. China and the US still share a symbiotic relationship. Both countries are very well aware of how much they need each other. American corporations need the labor, the American government needs the loans, (Ironic that the loan money finances a military-industrial complex that sees the source nation as a threat) and as China emerges as a strong consumer nation the US needs a place to sell their shit. Posturing aside, there are lines that both countries will not cross.

    3.

    Quote:
    Most of us thought that China would change politically as its economy grew and it was embraced by the rest of the world in meaningful ways like hosting the Olympics. But instead of opening up, it has been closing up.

    If by “opening up” you mean things like Democracy and Human Rights, that is a flawed assumption the outset. Democracy is not inherently good, indeed it has a large number of disadvantages which you noted above, and the US has long since lost their moral legitimacy in regards to human rights questions.

    Obama: Mr. President, the United States is very concerned about your human rights record.

    Hu: I’m sorry, Mr. President, my translator must be broken, the only thing I heard was, ‘Guantanamo, Abu Graib, Waterboarding, civilian casualties from bombing and drone strikes…”

    On that note, if a so-called “Democracy” like the United States can still perpetrate unjust wars based on false claims against sovereign states, then maybe that is the system of government that needs to be changed.

    4.

    Quote:
    China has been bombarded with propaganda that the United States is a bad guy for decades, and the average American also approaches the abstract notion of “China” with caution.

    This is a HUGE problem on both sides. All of us who live here have to deal with various degrees of dispute rooted in racism and nationalism, and it is just as bad in the US. My little brother went through basic training last year, and the drill sergeant was constantly saying things like, “If we go to war with China there are 1000 of them for every one of you, so you better learn to shoot fast and hit what you’re aiming at.” On one level, the rhetoric is just basic racists and idiots, but when that rhetoric comes from members of both governments it makes me think that both sides are fanning the flames of xenophobia for their own purposes and it saddens me that people can’t see through that. Still, I would even submit that this is part of the complex symbiotic relationship shared by the two superpowers. Hatred and Fear of Russia got the US to the moon, if the hatred is great enough on both sides who knows what could be accomplished.

    #17665
    Avatar photoJerryS
    Participant

    Anything can happen in 5-10 years. Heck, 10 years ago, China was not the super power it is today. I take a different perspective at this issue.

    North American Free Trade Agreement was passed under Clinton, with that, it gave prominence for a desperate Chinese work force. US was/is a consumer society, always wanting and buying things that they seem to ‘need.’ But the force on the other end is China. China greatly benefited from NAFTA, with Walmart usurping the market with cheap goods, they drove their competition away (Caldors, K-mart and others). Since then, other companies has jumped on the ‘made in China’ bandwagon and made the shareholders super rich! Without the consumerization of US, China would still be in the rut today.

    China greatly devalued their currency, at one time it was 10:1 USD! In the 70’s, when Nixon went there, it was 2:1. This, overtime, created influx of jobs leaving the US. To the point where manufacturing labor in the states are nil. Why? Why pay someone 10-20 bux an hour when you can pay someone in China for a 6th of the cost? Not just China is benefiting, Vietnam, Korea, India (dell anyone??), and other various ‘3rd’ world nations. But with this happening, it also creates infighting within the states. The states is such a credit debt nation that it drove them to the brink of collapsing!

    Bush II was a great man, he went to two wars, created fear, xenophobia and propaganda that was not seen since the cold war. He did this all while charging the ‘China Express Credit Card.’ China is a smart nation, who knows how to use its resources and generate profit. He, Bush, essentially drove the need of the United States into his proxy battles. What are the needs? Education, infrastructure, credit worries and others. Heck, he even masked the issues of the nation by enacting a bill called ‘Everyone needs to get a home.’ This drove the financial world into a frenzy.. AKA fast money and AKA near destruction of the US.

    Heck, to compete with China, US might roll back some of its labor laws and give corporations more power (since corporations are people my friend). Wages are turning back, inflation is high, saving are being defunct and the dollar turning weak (though its strengthening today… and i fucked up on my trade!!!). Not only that, the government is very weak due to the attack from the inside (who doesnt want to do anything with a half-black man as prez). With the cut backs and no revenue being generated, everything will be cut… Esp the US military, while the Chinese military is growing exponentially, in sheer number and technology!

    Will China and US clash in a ‘war?’ War only implies that two sides has an equal chance of winning, withing 5-10 years, it seems US might not be very strong and China will have ninja sharks with laser shooting out of all its orifices. Who knows, anything could happen, but i highly doubt there will be war or anything alike. The new Chinese president to be is in good straights with President Obama, both have interests within its borders. Not diplomatically but financially as well. China has billions of dollars invested in US company and stocks (research AIG during 2008 and how much China was vested in it.. AIG, GE and others). If China does do something, US has to be really weak and can not defend itself, while its Allied nations will just sit back scared shitless.

    Realistically, there can be a clash, but doubt it. Its a global Economy and things work different now versus the cold war era. The vested interests is too great. I highly doubt that Russia had Foxconn building products for US within its borders while both sides has one finger ready to deploy thousands of nukes.

    But real talk.. China would rather attack small fries.. Taiwan and Japan (after what Japan did to China’s former capital, revenge should be sweet). While US has to deal with Iran and their trigger happy chicken hawks.

    What i am trying to make you readers understand about my babble are the financial implications with war. No matter how shit bat crazy you are, at the end of the day, you still have to look within your wallet to try and buy something to eat….

    6.24:1 USD now… Once US enacts a new law attacking China indirectly via trade, then that can be a cause of concern….. US is the backbone of China, not the other way around…

    #17492
    Avatar photoJerryS
    Participant

    Anything can happen in 5-10 years. Heck, 10 years ago, China was not the super power it is today. I take a different perspective at this issue.

    North American Free Trade Agreement was passed under Clinton, with that, it gave prominence for a desperate Chinese work force. US was/is a consumer society, always wanting and buying things that they seem to ‘need.’ But the force on the other end is China. China greatly benefited from NAFTA, with Walmart usurping the market with cheap goods, they drove their competition away (Caldors, K-mart and others). Since then, other companies has jumped on the ‘made in China’ bandwagon and made the shareholders super rich! Without the consumerization of US, China would still be in the rut today.

    China greatly devalued their currency, at one time it was 10:1 USD! In the 70’s, when Nixon went there, it was 2:1. This, overtime, created influx of jobs leaving the US. To the point where manufacturing labor in the states are nil. Why? Why pay someone 10-20 bux an hour when you can pay someone in China for a 6th of the cost? Not just China is benefiting, Vietnam, Korea, India (dell anyone??), and other various ‘3rd’ world nations. But with this happening, it also creates infighting within the states. The states is such a credit debt nation that it drove them to the brink of collapsing!

    Bush II was a great man, he went to two wars, created fear, xenophobia and propaganda that was not seen since the cold war. He did this all while charging the ‘China Express Credit Card.’ China is a smart nation, who knows how to use its resources and generate profit. He, Bush, essentially drove the need of the United States into his proxy battles. What are the needs? Education, infrastructure, credit worries and others. Heck, he even masked the issues of the nation by enacting a bill called ‘Everyone needs to get a home.’ This drove the financial world into a frenzy.. AKA fast money and AKA near destruction of the US.

    Heck, to compete with China, US might roll back some of its labor laws and give corporations more power (since corporations are people my friend). Wages are turning back, inflation is high, saving are being defunct and the dollar turning weak (though its strengthening today… and i fucked up on my trade!!!). Not only that, the government is very weak due to the attack from the inside (who doesnt want to do anything with a half-black man as prez). With the cut backs and no revenue being generated, everything will be cut… Esp the US military, while the Chinese military is growing exponentially, in sheer number and technology!

    Will China and US clash in a ‘war?’ War only implies that two sides has an equal chance of winning, withing 5-10 years, it seems US might not be very strong and China will have ninja sharks with laser shooting out of all its orifices. Who knows, anything could happen, but i highly doubt there will be war or anything alike. The new Chinese president to be is in good straights with President Obama, both have interests within its borders. Not diplomatically but financially as well. China has billions of dollars invested in US company and stocks (research AIG during 2008 and how much China was vested in it.. AIG, GE and others). If China does do something, US has to be really weak and can not defend itself, while its Allied nations will just sit back scared shitless.

    Realistically, there can be a clash, but doubt it. Its a global Economy and things work different now versus the cold war era. The vested interests is too great. I highly doubt that Russia had Foxconn building products for US within its borders while both sides has one finger ready to deploy thousands of nukes.

    But real talk.. China would rather attack small fries.. Taiwan and Japan (after what Japan did to China’s former capital, revenge should be sweet). While US has to deal with Iran and their trigger happy chicken hawks.

    What i am trying to make you readers understand about my babble are the financial implications with war. No matter how shit bat crazy you are, at the end of the day, you still have to look within your wallet to try and buy something to eat….

    6.24:1 USD now… Once US enacts a new law attacking China indirectly via trade, then that can be a cause of concern….. US is the backbone of China, not the other way around…

    #17668
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator
    Quote:
    To then goad the person is just ignorant to the other persons “right of choice”

    I think you’re taking what’s been said far too literally there. Again, I posted my remarks in an attempt to keep the thread on point. My remarks shouldn’t be interpreted as targeting a specific individual, rather the readers of the forum. Mike & Jerry seem to grasp the idea nicely. I have also been talking to individuals privately, but I’m not going to cease trying to engage others at the same time.

    Mike, I’m not so sure that the Iran question has it’s answer in the abstract. From the ‘Atoms For Peace’ program in the 1950’s, to the Iran Contra Affair and beyond, the US has been scheming it’s way to control of Persian oil one way or another for as long as Communism. China has historically been greatly dependent on this oil (and natural gas), not something that the US will have ignored in it’s tactical maneuvering. The senate has now passed sanctions allowing US vetoing of all foreign trade transacting with Iran’s Central Bank, further edging toward either regime change (very favourable for US interests), or confrontation.

    No question that the media has overplayed the fear factor in the extreme, but the game being played by the US to position itself favourably in the Gulf is a very real one that’s been taking shape for decades, running a cost in the billions. China remains very much a part of that equation, now more so than ever.

    #17497
    Avatar photoBrendan
    Moderator
    Quote:
    To then goad the person is just ignorant to the other persons “right of choice”

    I think you’re taking what’s been said far too literally there. Again, I posted my remarks in an attempt to keep the thread on point. My remarks shouldn’t be interpreted as targeting a specific individual, rather the readers of the forum. Mike & Jerry seem to grasp the idea nicely. I have also been talking to individuals privately, but I’m not going to cease trying to engage others at the same time.

    Mike, I’m not so sure that the Iran question has it’s answer in the abstract. From the ‘Atoms For Peace’ program in the 1950’s, to the Iran Contra Affair and beyond, the US has been scheming it’s way to control of Persian oil one way or another for as long as Communism. China has historically been greatly dependent on this oil (and natural gas), not something that the US will have ignored in it’s tactical maneuvering. The senate has now passed sanctions allowing US vetoing of all foreign trade transacting with Iran’s Central Bank, further edging toward either regime change (very favourable for US interests), or confrontation.

    No question that the media has overplayed the fear factor in the extreme, but the game being played by the US to position itself favourably in the Gulf is a very real one that’s been taking shape for decades, running a cost in the billions. China remains very much a part of that equation, now more so than ever.

    #17673
    Avatar photoChris Ziich
    Moderator
    Quote:
    …running a cost in the billions.

    trillions

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